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Prostopinije #191467
04/17/04 08:17 PM
04/17/04 08:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
East
JohnS. Offline OP
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JohnS.  Offline OP
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East
Christ is Risen!

Did the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Parishes who joined the Russian Orthodox Church with Fr. Toth retain Prostopinije?

Re: Prostopinije #191468
04/17/04 09:17 PM
04/17/04 09:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
Crestwood, NY
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Tony Offline
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They did initially yes. The overwhelming majority have not been able to retain it until today.

Re: Prostopinije #191469
04/17/04 11:28 PM
04/17/04 11:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 644
Reseda CA
Steve Petach Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Tony:
They did initially yes. The overwhelming majority have not been able to retain it until today.
XB!
Christos Voskrese!

Tony,

Are you indicating that there was an later time they had NOT used prostopinije following an earlier time in which they had used, and are more recently returning to, the prostopinije traditions? If so, what music had/have they used? Were Russian composers/compositions the predominant usage as in OCA parishes?

I am presuming that you and John S. are speaking of the ACROD-Johnstown.

I too am curious, as I was recently at a local OCA church, enjoying the choir music, during Pascha following services at the Byzantine Catholic parish. biggrin

Steve Petach

Re: Prostopinije #191470
04/18/04 04:17 AM
04/18/04 04:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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incognitus Offline
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The Eparchy of Kholm, and the parishes which followed the lead of Saint Alexis (Toth) in the USA, joined the Russian Orthodox Church at a time which was musically speaking unfortunate - Bakhmetev's "prostoie" was imposed holus-bolus everywhere within reach of the Russian Holy Governing Synod, under the entirely mistaken assumption that this was "real Orthodox music". In this way, the most serious damage was done to authentic traditions of Orthodox chant. The recovery began several decades later, but secular events (the Russian Revolution) intruded. Znammeny chant, Pochaiv chant, Galician chant, Transcarpathian chant (prostopinije) and so forth are enjoying something of a comeback, but the process is slow.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus

Re: Prostopinije #191471
04/18/04 06:13 AM
04/18/04 06:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
East
JohnS. Offline OP
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Thanks Tony, Steve and Incognitus.

Tony, are many of OCA parishes of Greek Catholic origin returning to Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant?

The reason I ask is our Byzantine Catholic Parish has an OCA daughter parish in the area. One of these days I'll make the trek to join them for vespers. I'm curious what I will find in the way of chant.

ACROD has some wonderful Prostopinije samples on their website.

Re: Prostopinije #191472
04/18/04 11:32 AM
04/18/04 11:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
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Hermitage, PA
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Chtec Offline
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XB!

Incognitus said that there is a slow "come back" of alternatives to Bakhmetev in the OCA, and this is true. I would say that this "come back" is along the lines of token pieces of music. Most OCA places (excluding the Romanians, Albanians, etc.) still have Russian/Obikhod chant as the basis, and I don't think this is going to change.

The history behind the disappearance of full-scale prostopinije from the then Metropolia/future OCA would be an interesting research project. As Tony said, it was retained by many former Greek Catholics early on, but it does seem to have been one of those things that was discarded by most as "Uniate." "Real Russian Orthodox churches" have choirs singing choral music, not cantors and people singing prostopinije or samoilka. There were some pockets of resistance. I have a set of records from the 60's of a Paschal Divine Liturgy, sung almost entirely in prostopinije, from a Metropolia parish somewhere in central or western PA. I can't remember the name of the town or the priest at the moment. Another notable exception was St. John's in Passaic, NJ. They retained a lot of prostopinije, especially under the guidance of their choir director, M. P. Hilko. Certain things, like the Parastas, were sung in prostopinije until the early 1980's; the death-blows to such practices were inflicted by a priest who, ironically, died as a pastor of a Ruthenian G. C. parish.

As I said before, I do not think that prostopinije will enjoy any great resurrection in the OCA, and I say this as both a member of the OCA and as one who grealy loves prostopinije. Obikhod has been used in most parishes for several generations. Choirs are standard. Most people in the congragations don't sing and won't open their mouths even if you tell them to do so. There is still a little bit of a bias in many circles towards "Russian" music, or at least "Russian" performance style. Singing anything that "sounds" different, be it prostopinije, samoilka, znammeny, Byzantine-Greek, etc. raises eyebrows. Many parishes and institutions will employ a "mix" of chants (look at any music book from SVS), but Russian music still takes the cake. There are a few people in the OCA who have set prostopinije into OCA translations, and they should be commended for their efforts.

While a lot of established parishes are set in their musical ways, maybe a few OCA missions could be founded that just sing prostopinije? wink

Dave

Re: Prostopinije #191473
04/18/04 04:48 PM
04/18/04 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
Crestwood, NY
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Tony Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Steve Petach:
Are you indicating that there was an later time they had NOT used prostopinije following an earlier time in which they had used, and are more recently returning to, the prostopinije traditions? If so, what music had/have they used? Were Russian composers/compositions the predominant usage as in OCA parishes?

I am presuming that you and John S. are speaking of the ACROD-Johnstown.
Steve,

BB!
Voistinnu voskrese!

Initially the parishes that joined Orthodoxy (in the form of the Metropolia) -it seems- kept their usages intact, obviously changing the commemoration of the pope/hierarch, etc. From what little is written on this subject there was pressure to conform to Great Russian usage. Dave has covered the rest of that rather well I think.

No, the Johnstown Diocese was not formed by any Toth events, it was formed decades later. Some Metropolia parishes joined Johnstown later though.

Tony

Re: Prostopinije #191474
04/18/04 04:52 PM
04/18/04 04:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
Crestwood, NY
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Tony Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by John S.:
Tony, are many of OCA parishes of Greek Catholic origin returning to Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant?

The reason I ask is our Byzantine Catholic Parish has an OCA daughter parish in the area. One of these days I'll make the trek to join them for vespers. I'm curious what I will find in the way of chant.
Dear John,

I don't think there is much of a return going on but more and more texts are being made available set to prostop'inije.

Do go visit the OCA parish and let us know what you find.

Tony

Re: Prostopinije #191475
04/18/04 04:55 PM
04/18/04 04:55 PM
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incognitus Offline
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Bakhmetev prostoie, be it said, is not authentic Russian liturgical music. It is horrifically reduced down to the level of a first-year music student - you might say that it's the a capella equivalent of learning three chords on a guitar and claiming to be a guitarist. If you want real Russian liturgical music, it's available, but it takes work. Try Ledkovsky's landmark Obikhod, for a starter. Then try the Sputnik Psalomshchika. Then try learning kriuki. You are in for a pleasant set of surprises.
Incognitus

Re: Prostopinije #191476
04/18/04 05:09 PM
04/18/04 05:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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This is a very interesting topic. The Ukrainian Orthodox, also comprised of many former Greek Catholic parishes, continue to use to a great extent congregational Galician Samoylka, while in many places the prostopinje or samoylka was lost with the OCA and apparently also the ACROD.

I am pleased with the OCA music website, which contains an increasingly more diversified set of music http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Publications/Music/. I used the Znamenny Christos Voskrese download at our Agape Vespers this year, as well as their English setting of Obleshchuk's Galician Christ is Risen.

I hope the good work continues of restoring Carpathian chant amongst the ACROD and OCA, as it seems to be very slowly gathering more support with time. I think for a while during the last generation a phenomena existed whereby Carpathian congregational chant (prostopinje and samoylka) was seen by both the clergy and some of the faithful as a diagnostic of the "Uniates" and it was discouraged.

That no longer seems to be the case. Unfortunately with the discouragement of prostopinje and samoylka congregational singing in general suffered as a consequence.

But in agreement with Chtets (as usual) my observations out here in the Diocese of the Midwest parishes we frequent is that the Bakhmatev Obikhod and variants are generally the mainstay, however with very slowly increasing incursions by Carpathian chants.

Some of the newer missions are finding now that congregational singing along the lines of samoylka and prostopinje is much more participational and "involving" for lack of a better term for the smaller congregations. One mission out our way even asked me recently to teach them some Galician melodies from the Oktoechos, so there is still hope... smile

Re: Prostopinije #191477
04/18/04 05:45 PM
04/18/04 05:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Hermitage, PA
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Chtec Offline
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Hermitage, PA
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
...while in many places the prostopinje or samoylka was lost with the OCA and apparently also the ACROD.
I don't think that ACROD has lost prostopinije. Quite the contrary!

Dave

Re: Prostopinije #191478
04/18/04 05:50 PM
04/18/04 05:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 976
Crestwood, NY
T
Tony Offline
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Tony  Offline
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Crestwood, NY
Quote
Originally posted by Chtec:
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
[b] ...while in many places the prostopinje or samoylka was lost with the OCA and apparently also the ACROD.
I don't think that ACROD has lost prostopinije. Quite the contrary!

Dave [/b]
Dear Dave,

Perhaps the local ACROD parish here is an exception but they seem to have lost quite a bit.

Tony

Re: Prostopinije #191479
04/18/04 06:25 PM
04/18/04 06:25 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
USA
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djs Offline
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Bishop Job of the OCA is advancing this restoration.
His choir director has some nice material on the web
http://choirpractice.unmercenary.com/index.html

Re: Prostopinije #191480
04/18/04 07:51 PM
04/18/04 07:51 PM
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Hermitage, PA
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Chtec Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Tony:
Perhaps the local ACROD parish here is an exception but they seem to have lost quite a bit.

Tony
I believe the Yonkers parish was part of the Metropolia for a while.

Dave

Re: Prostopinije #191481
04/18/04 08:01 PM
04/18/04 08:01 PM
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Hermitage, PA
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Chtec Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Bishop Job of the OCA is advancing this restoration.
I was told that Bishop Job (as a layman, not as a cleric) was Greek Catholic and his father was a cantor.

When Bishop Job (then Father John) was pastor of the OCA parish in Black Lick, PA, his parish produced a record of Paschal music, most of which was harmonized prostopinije.

Bishop Job is one of those in the OCA who has set prostopinije into English OCA texts and helped introduce it to a lot of choirs.

Dave

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