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Originally Posted by MrsMW
We also lobby against gay marriage. While the other things are important abortion is at the top. No one dies. These days most Catholics that take it seriously try to change people hearts and minds on contraception and divorce. However that can not be used on abortion because the victim is murdered.

I venture to say that most Orthodox I have met and have read would agree that abortion is the most important issue in our day.


Yes, I recognize all of that. But is it a goal (perhaps long term?) for Catholics to make non-abortifacient contraception and civil divorce illegal?

Joe

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As much as I would prefer a world without contraception and divorce it won't happen.Even if every Catholic voted that way. The protestants, and other groups would out vote us. Roe vs Wade could be over turned as the next president will put more Justices on the bench.

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Yes, I recognize all of that. But is it a goal (perhaps long term?) for Catholics to make non-abortifacient contraception and civil divorce illegal?

Joe


JOE:

You're a serious Christian adult. You don't really think this is a goal or long-term vision--a hyperbole, maybe, but not something serious.

Humanae Vitae was meant to be for Catholics a definition of the traditional teaching concerning contraception and the dignity of both spouses and the marital union. It's our teaching. Whether the world accepts it is irrevelent because it is meant to further define what a Catholic Christian ought to do.

That said, it wasn't until the third decade of the 20th century that any Christian body considered contraception something that could be endorsed. The whole idea came from the eugenics movement and the liberalization of the 1920s--allowing women to be in the same position as men: promiscuous without having to worry about responsibility. The Anglicans were the first on board with this and the rest of Protestantism fell into place as the decades went by.

The Orthodox Church prefers to deal with this, in my understanding, in the internal forum--in confession and with the guidance of one's spiritual father. IMHO, a good place to have it.

But, again, we're moving off topic. Topic is abortion, voting, and Holy Communion. Questions that I'd have are

Why would you support, help, or be an enabler for someone to kill another human being?

Is voting for a person who supports, helps, or enables abortion by legislative effort directly related to the murder of another human being?

How does this affect my relationship with Christ? After all, that's what Holy Communion is all about--it is the supreme experience of the relationship we are called to in Baptism and Chrismation. Can I be in relationship with Christ and be one who is directly or indirectly a person who participates in the murder of the innocent?

Is this act--abortion--akin to Herod's order to kill the Holy Innocents (commemorated by both East and West in the week following the Nativity?

With all the advances in genetics can we any longer deny that a fertilized ovum is a whole other, new human being?

What are the consequences of our answers?

As I posted above, if one is not allowed to live, how can anything else matter? If I'm dead, what does contraception, just war, gay marriage, theological differences, environmental problems, global warming, or anything else matter? I'm already removed from all these things and it doesn't cross my radar in eternity.

In Christ,

BOB

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Originally Posted by MrsMW
We also lobby against gay marriage. While the other things are important abortion is at the top. No one dies. These days most Catholics that take it seriously try to change people hearts and minds on contraception and divorce. However that can not be used on abortion because the victim is murdered.

I venture to say that most Orthodox I have met and have read would agree that abortion is the most important issue in our day.




While I agree with you about the rest, there are many Christians who do not see contraception in the same league as abortion. I do not think that the two should be equated and that by doing so, those who labor against abortion lose ground.

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I agree. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Some folks want to make it the same thing but that just not the case. I can tell people why I think birth-control is bad but I am not going worry about an unborn baby dying. As for divorce sometimes that is the only way to end years of hell. The Catholic church is much more concerned about remarriage than the actual divorce.

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The hard truth is that if you add all the American deaths in 9-11 and the casualties of Gulf War II/Afghanistan they will equal the deaths caused by abortion in America in only 2 days.

50,000,000 abortions have happened in America alone (that we know of) since 1973. Just for comparison, there were 72,000,000 deaths due to WWII, and 2,500,000 in the Vietnam War (mostly Vietnamese.)

Abortion kills more people than any other disaster or war. There are 42,000,000 abortions (that we know of) per year.

There is no other issue that comes close the the Satanic horror of a people reaching up inside its mothers and ripping its children limb from limb.

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"Yes, I recognize all of that. But is it a goal (perhaps long term?) for Catholics to make non-abortifacient contraception and civil divorce illegal"
Yes, it is.
_Evangelium Vitae_ (not to be confused with _Humanae Vitae_) says that contraception should be just as much a political priority as abortion.

It does not matter what other people think, or whether the viewpoint is popular. Contraception goes against the Natural Law. C. S. Lewis presents the pagan arguments against it in _The Abolition of Man_. The reason why the West is so adamant about forcing contraception on Africa and Asia is that, in addition to Catholicism, Islam, some forms of Hinduism (contraception interferes with the process of reincarnation), and most pagan religions oppose contraception.

JPII said that the argument that "it won't happen" or "it's too unpopular" is a form of the sin of despair. God wants it to happen. It's our job to work towards it happening.

So, if you have a candidate who is pro-contraception but anti-abortion (e.g., John McCain, George Bush or Bob Dole), running against a candidate who is anti-contraception *and* anti-abortion (e.g., Pat Buchanan or Alan Keyes), then a Catholic is morally obligated to vote for the candidate who opposes *both*. It doesn't matter if he's "likely to win" or he's "popular." The Church says *nothing* about moral obligations to vote for majority parties (except that, to say, "We have to vote for the popular candidate" is an argument that goes against both the principle of democracy and trust in the Holy Spirit).


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Glory be to Jesus Christ!

An article that all should about Obama and his stance on abortion: Obama's Abortion Extremism

Mark T.

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Originally Posted by John C. Hathaway
"Yes, I recognize all of that. But is it a goal (perhaps long term?) for Catholics to make non-abortifacient contraception and civil divorce illegal"
Yes, it is.
_Evangelium Vitae_ (not to be confused with _Humanae Vitae_) says that contraception should be just as much a political priority as abortion.

It does not matter what other people think, or whether the viewpoint is popular. Contraception goes against the Natural Law. C. S. Lewis presents the pagan arguments against it in _The Abolition of Man_. The reason why the West is so adamant about forcing contraception on Africa and Asia is that, in addition to Catholicism, Islam, some forms of Hinduism (contraception interferes with the process of reincarnation), and most pagan religions oppose contraception.

JPII said that the argument that "it won't happen" or "it's too unpopular" is a form of the sin of despair. God wants it to happen. It's our job to work towards it happening.

So, if you have a candidate who is pro-contraception but anti-abortion (e.g., John McCain, George Bush or Bob Dole), running against a candidate who is anti-contraception *and* anti-abortion (e.g., Pat Buchanan or Alan Keyes), then a Catholic is morally obligated to vote for the candidate who opposes *both*. It doesn't matter if he's "likely to win" or he's "popular." The Church says *nothing* about moral obligations to vote for majority parties (except that, to say, "We have to vote for the popular candidate" is an argument that goes against both the principle of democracy and trust in the Holy Spirit).



Not that I'm a "Know Nothing," I'm certainly not. But when I read these kinds of views I have to confess that I can understand why Americans have historically been suspicious of Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church.

Joe

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Anti-Catholicism runs deep in this country. They all were against birth-control until the 1930's so it wasn't about contraception. The treatment of Catholics was due to anti-Catholic protestantism. There was and is no excuse for this type of bigotry. Today you can't make fun of anyone's religion but Catholicicsm. Just look at Hollywood.

The Church is concerned with the culture of death. It has to work on its own people before it worries about making condoms illegal. I don't know any pro-life group who is working on getting contraception illegal. It is working at this point to get pro-life candidates elected, help those in a crisis pregnancy, and change the hearts and minds of America. The Catholics will never get contraception illegal because most every church out there supports it.


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Originally Posted by MrsMW
Anti-Catholicism runs deep in this country. They all were against birth-control until the 1930's so it wasn't about contraception. The treatment of Catholics was due to anti-Catholic protestantism. There was and is no excuse for this type of bigotry. Today you can't make fun of anyone's religion but Catholicicsm. Just look at Hollywood.

The Church is concerned with the culture of death. It has to work on its own people before it worries about making condoms illegal. I don't know any pro-life group who is working on getting contraception illegal. It is working at this point to get pro-life candidates elected, help those in a crisis pregnancy, and change the hearts and minds of America. The Catholics will never get contraception illegal because most every church out there supports it.



How many Roman Catholics today choose not to follow the Church's ban on contraception? I would bet that it is over 50% of all married Roman Catholic couples. I think barrier contraception (and all artificial contraception methods) and abortion should not be treated seperately, as they both are trying to prevent procreation.

Ung

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I think barrier contraception (and all artificial contraception methods) and abortion should not be treated seperately (sic), as they both are trying to prevent procreation.


UNG:

Here's where I have to disagree strongly. Contraception is the prevention of human life from forming. Abortion is the deliberate destruction of a human life already formed.

Genetics takes away the argument about the new life being less than a new life since a quick look at the DNA shows half coming from the father and half from the mother--a wholly new, unique code for a totally new, unique human being.

There have been arguments for the permission of the parents to take the life of a child once born out of the womb for a month or so after the delivery. I've read medical ethicists who argue that this should be permissible for various reasons.

The question becomes where we draw the line once we allow someone bigger and stronger to take the life of another just because he is inconvenient or weaker, or unable to take care of himself.

The same argument has been used in Western Europe in some countries to justify euthanasia of the helpless elderly. They have lost their utility and independence and are, therefore, an inconvenience or burden.

How about the disabled? There was a time after I became disabled where my comp nurse argued that since I couldn't go back to unlimited heavy lifting job that the company should be allowed to drop me before I was fully rehabilitated to save money. Why should they spend money for a three-year rehab? Why should they continue to pay for medications I need to keep chronic pain under control? She actually argued that I was no longer useful to anyone or to society--a throw-away person.

Where does it end? Who is safe?

In Christ,

BOB

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I agree with Bob. Birth control is not the same thing as abortion. While the whole contraceptive culture has led to abortion it is not an abortion.

My Dad was born with deformed legs and had to have his lower legs removed at the age of 2. The thought of him being aborted makes me sick. Many kids like my Dad are aborted. 80% of down's kids are aborted. I have had 3 babies in the past 5 years. Let me tell you you have to take test after test to see if your baby has something wrong with it. It is all done so you can abort. I would always tell them I will never abort my baby under any circumstances. I would just say I am a by the book Catholic. That was all I had to say.


A friend of mine who lives on the border of Germany and Holland says to everyone he knows "If I get in a wreck do whatever you can to get me into Germany."



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Originally Posted by MrsMW
I agree with Bob. Birth control is not the same thing as abortion. While the whole contraceptive culture has led to abortion it is not an abortion.

My Dad was born with deformed legs and had to have his lower legs removed at the age of 2. The thought of him being aborted makes me sick. Many kids like my Dad are aborted. 80% of down's kids are aborted. I have had 3 babies in the past 5 years. Let me tell you you have to take test after test to see if your baby has something wrong with it. It is all done so you can abort. I would always tell them I will never abort my baby under any circumstances. I would just say I am a by the book Catholic. That was all I had to say.


A friend of mine who lives on the border of Germany and Holland says to everyone he knows "If I get in a wreck do whatever you can to get me into Germany."




Interestingly enough, I believe that Germany's abortion laws are more restrictive than ours.

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They're not the same thing, but they should be equal priorities. Even the Supreme Court ruled in _Planned Parenthood V. Casey_ that abortion must be legal if contraception is legal, because abortion is a "necessary" failsafe to contraception.

All offenses against the dignity of life that plague our society--especially In Vitro Fertilization and Embryonic Stem Cell Research--are only consistent if coupled with a condemnation of contraception.


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