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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as one recognizes it is but an opinion. Your main argument with the West is it is not Byzantine. Well, so what? It never was. The tendencies you see in Augustine are also found in Tertullian and Cyprian of Carthage. And, as I said, after Augustine the West is Augustinian. That's history. The issues you raise were undoubtedly known to the Greek Church in the first millennium. They were never issues during that time. The Fathers, unlike a lot of contemporary Catholic and Orthodox Christians, were quite content to allow for differences of expression in theology, liturgy and piety, insisting only that there be unity in the essentials of faith. Since that time, there has been something of a cottage industry in making mountains out of mole hills.

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There are no "Palamites" in the East comparable to "Thomists" in the West. There is no school that follows Palamas like there is with Thomas Aquinas, and to argue that there is such a thing is foolishness.

Differences of language in the East are not the equivalent of the Scholastic schools in the West.

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Yes there is simply Orthodoxy and simply Catholicism - but the "schools" are variations in emphasis. How could there not be various "schools" of emphasis when we clearly see the distinction between the Byzantine theology in the Eastern Greek and Slav Churches, emphasizing slightly different aspects, in different language, through various cultures of the same faith as the Coptic Churches, both of which emphasize slightly different aspects than the Syriac or Armenian Churches - all of which are simply Orthodox/Catholic.

Beyond that, we would have to say that were it not for the distinctiveness of the Alexandrian and Antiochian schools of theology, the divisions which began to afflict the Churches in the East would not have occurred. On the other hand, the Church as a whole is much richer for those differences. Since God is a mystery, which we perceive only indirectly and through reflection, one can consider the different theological traditions as facets on a diamond that refract light in different ways, illuminating different aspects of the object we are examining through it depending on the facet through which we look.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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Yes there is simply Orthodoxy and simply Catholicism - but the "schools" are variations in emphasis. How could there not be various "schools" of emphasis when we clearly see the distinction between the Byzantine theology in the Eastern Greek and Slav Churches, emphasizing slightly different aspects, in different language, through various cultures of the same faith as the Coptic Churches, both of which emphasize slightly different aspects than the Syriac or Armenian Churches - all of which are simply Orthodox/Catholic.

Beyond that, we would have to say that were it not for the distinctiveness of the Alexandrian and Antiochian schools of theology, the divisions which began to afflict the Churches in the East would not have occurred. On the other hand, the Church as a whole is much richer for those differences. Since God is a mystery, which we perceive only indirectly and through reflection, one can consider the different theological traditions as facets on a diamond that refract light in different ways, illuminating different aspects of the object we are examining through it depending on the facet through which we look.
An anachronistic misapplication of terms. The "schools" of Antioch and Alexandria are not comparable to what Aquinas and the Scholastics did, because both of those ancient "schools" used the same apophatic approach, and both recognized that what God is can never been known, but that He can only be experienced through grace.

More to the point at issue, I agree with Dr. Joost Van Rossum,who - in his article for St. Vladimir's Theological Quarterly - pointed out he different approaches of Aquinas and Palamas. Aquinas was trying to develop a rational system of theology, while Palamass always remained apophatic and non-philosophical in his approach to theology, and that is why Western theologians are normally unsatisfied with what Palamas said about God in relation to the essence / energy distinction. Palamas never tried to say what this ineffable distinction is, but only that it is something in God, which is only known to Him (cf. Joost Van Rossum, "Deification in Palamas and Aquinas," SVTQ 47, nos. 3-4, page 368).

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St. Thomas Aquinas states the exact same thing, in Latin terminology:

STI,Q12,a4:

"Therefore the created intellect cannot see the essence of God, unless God by His grace unites Himself to the created intellect, as an object made intelligible to it."

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
St. Thomas Aquinas states the exact same thing, in Latin terminology:

STI,Q12,a4:

"Therefore the created intellect cannot see the essence of God, unless God by His grace unites Himself to the created intellect, as an object made intelligible to it."
No, Aquinas has not said the same thing, because the created intellect can never (ever) see the essence of God, since God's essence is hyperousios.

By saying that the created intellect can see God's essence (in any way), one has created an idol, for such a person has made the divine essence a category of created thought (see St. Gregory of Nyssa's "Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes," "The Life of Moses" nos. 162-163, and his "Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes"; see also St. Maximos the Confessor's, "Chapters on Knowledge," First Century, no. 2; and St. Basil's Letter 234).

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Here's a Coptic Orthodox faithful's answer to that statement:

Cyril – That which engraves in us the divine image and imprints there the transcendent beauty like with a stamp, isn’t that the Spirit?
Hemias – But not as a God, they say, as a minister of grace.
Cyril – Is it not Him Himself who marks us, consequently, it is the grace through Him?
Hermias – Apparently
Cyril – But if the grace given by the Spirit is something separate from its substance, why didn’t the blessed Moses clearly say that after having brought the living being into existence, the Craftsman of the universe had afterwards breathed into him a grace, the one which was given through the breath of life? Why didn’t Christ, on his part, say to us: Receive a grace, the one which was given by the ministry of the Holy Spirit? But in the first case, they call this one “breath of life”. It is that the nature of the divinity is true life, since it is true that in it we have life, movement and being. In the second case it is called “Holy Spirit” by the voice of the Savior, which in truth introduces and makes the Spirit dwell in the souls of the believers.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Here's a Coptic Orthodox faithful's answer to that statement:

Cyril – That which engraves in us the divine image and imprints there the transcendent beauty like with a stamp, isn’t that the Spirit?
Hemias – But not as a God, they say, as a minister of grace.
Cyril – Is it not Him Himself who marks us, consequently, it is the grace through Him?
Hermias – Apparently
Cyril – But if the grace given by the Spirit is something separate from its substance, why didn’t the blessed Moses clearly say that after having brought the living being into existence, the Craftsman of the universe had afterwards breathed into him a grace, the one which was given through the breath of life? Why didn’t Christ, on his part, say to us: Receive a grace, the one which was given by the ministry of the Holy Spirit? But in the first case, they call this one “breath of life”. It is that the nature of the divinity is true life, since it is true that in it we have life, movement and being. In the second case it is called “Holy Spirit” by the voice of the Savior, which in truth introduces and makes the Spirit dwell in the souls of the believers.
A beautiful text, which I would love to see in the Greek. It is quite condemnatory of the Western approach to grace as a "created habitus."

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Do you actually know any Latin theologians today who speak of "created grace" in the hylomorphic sense? Or are you beating up straw men once more?

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
A beautiful text, which I would love to see in the Greek. It is quite condemnatory of the Western approach to grace as a "created habitus."

I see you're still beating the same horse after all these years. The "created habitus" you refer to is nothing other than the indwelling of Divine Life changing the soul. Every major Latin theologian has emphasized this point, from Aquinas to St. John of the Cross to Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. Your insistence that it is some kind of creaturely (on the level of created nature) modification, rather than the sharing of Divinity, has no basis in reality. Perhaps with some Protestants, or even a few Scotist theologians centuries ago, but that has never represented mainstream Latin theology.

It's very disappointing to see this same calumny being spoken against authentic Latin theology.

God bless.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this disturbing. It reminds me of nothing so much as a graduate student frustrated because none of his professors are taking his thesis seriously.

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I am reminded of the words of Antiochian Orthodox priest and scholar Patrick Reardon:

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English-speaking Orthodox these days is actually just a branch of the larger Orthodox picture. Indeed, it tends sometimes to be rather sectarian.

The Orthodox Church is an ancient castle, as it were, of which only two or three rooms have been much in use since about 1920. These two or three rooms were furnished by the Russian émigrés in Paris between the two World Wars. This furniture is heavily neo-Palamite and anti-Scholastic. It relies heavily on the Cappadocians, Maximus, and Gregory Palamas (who are good folks, or course). Anything that does not fit comfortably into that model is dismissed as “Western” and even non-Orthodox.

Consequently, one will look in vain in that theology for any significant contribution from the Alexandrians, chiefly Cyril, and that major Antiochian, Chrysostom. When these are quoted, it is usually some incidental point on which they can afford to be quoted.

Now I submit that any ‘Orthodox’ theology that has so little use for the two major figures from Antioch and Alexandria is giving something less than the whole picture.

Likewise, this popular neo-Palamite brand of Orthodoxy, though it quotes Damascene when it is convenient, never really engages Damascene’s manifestly ‘Scholastic’ approach to theology.

Much less does it have any use for the other early Scholastic theologians, such as Theodore the Studite and Euthymus Zygabenus. There is no recognition that Scholasticism was born in the East, not the West, and that only the rise of the Turk kept it from flourishing in the East.

There is also no explicit recognition that the defining pattern of Orthodox Christology was formulated in the West before Chalcedon. Pope Leo’s distinctions are already very clear in Augustine decades before Chalcedon. Yet, Orthodox treatises on the history of Christology regularly ignore Augustine.

Augustine tends to be classified as a ‘Scholastic,’ which he most certainly was not.

But Western and Scholastic are bad words with these folks.

In fact, however, Augustine and the Scholastics represent only other rooms in the larger castle.

For this reason I urge you, as you can, to read in the Orthodox sources that tend to get skipped in what currently passes for ‘Orthodoxy.’ For my part, I believe the Russian émigré theology from Paris, which seems profoundly reactionary and anti-Western, is an inadequate instrument for the evangelization of this country and the world. I say this while gladly recognizing my own debt to Russian émigré theology.”

Ultimately, what does being scholastic mean? It means attempting to think rigorously and clearly about theological questions. I presume that Sts Cyril of Alexandria, John Damascene, Maximus the Confessor also attempted to do this, each in their different idioms.

This kind of generalized attack on Western scholasticism has nothing more than polemics and ideology. How many of you have read St Thomas Aquinas and St Bonaventure, to cite the two best-known scholastic theologians of the West? Have you read, e.g., Bonaventure's The Soul's Journey into God? If you have, then you know that this towering intellect was also a man of deep prayer and mystical experience.

Shame on you for these polemical and ignorant attacks on that which you do not know. Shame. Instead of spending so much time attacking straw Western men, you should instead be spending your time acquainting yourselves with both the Eastern and Western Church Fathers, we well as your own wider theological tradition, much of which, unfortunately, it not yet available in English. And then, having truly mastered the whole of the Eastern tradition, perhaps you would then be in a position to constructively and sympathetically engage the classic Western theologians. Only then will they be in a position to offer critique.

Don't you folks realize how destructive silly polemics like this is?! It is destructive to sound theological reflection and constructive conversation. It is destructive to the unity of the Church. And it is destructive to one's soul. Being an ideologue is easy. Becoming a real theologian is something very different.


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Wow, I'm glad to hear from an Orthodox priest the view that St. John of Damascus was basically "Scholastic" in his approach. I would argue that much of what is called "Scholasticism" is derived directly from St. John's approach, especially through St. Thomas Aquinas who pretty much based his theological work on St. John's approach.

I also agree that St. Thomas Aquinas was fundamentally a mystic (and his mystical approach can not be reduced to the single event that is often cited). He just also tried to put the mystical into a cohesive form of thinking, much like his predecessor St. John of Damascus. St. Thomas spent much more energy in mystical prayer than he ever did on the Summa, and his insights came from that mysticism, not from any "systematic" approach to God.

Peace and God bless!

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Although it may be apocryphal, there is an old story told about St Thomas that points to what Fr. Kimel and Ghosty are saying. When the subtle doctor was asked by his students at Paris what he wanted most while in this world, he replied that he wished to have all the sermons of St John Chrysostom next to his bed. How's that for night time reading, and from a scholastic no less? Thank you Father and Ghosty.

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I had a class once as an Undergraduate at the University of San Diego on the Summa and Saint Thomas. The Professor was Fr. Thomas O'Meara, O.P, Ph.D. and he was teaching us about the Eastern Influence of St. Thomas. At the time I didn't really buy it- I was staunchly Eastern and wanted nothing to do with the West. Since that time I have really changed my outlook on the Latin Church and then came into Communion with her this last year(thanks be to God) I reread my class notes and I found that my professor was right and I was just a stubborn undergraduate who didn't want to see it. All the best.

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