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Well, "I'm insulted" is not an argument. Neither is, "I'm a teacher, so you can't have an opinion". As I said, I have credentials of my own. Responding to the positions of others with reasoned, fact-based points of your own, now, that's an argument.

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John Derbyshire relates the sorry tale of public school "reform" in Kansas City, 1977-2009, courtesy of National Review [article.nationalreview.com] . It makes John's case for the immorality of using tax dollars to support the public school system as it now exists:

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Everything’s up the Spout in Kansas City
There is nothing new in education theory, ever.

By John Derbyshire

EDITOR'S NOTE: This is an excerpt from John Derbyshire’s upcoming We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism, to be released Sept. 29, 2009.

Okay, you’re probably thinking that when politicians and edbiz theorists talk about spending more money on education, they don’t have leafy suburbs and ivy-clad universities in mind. It’s those inner-city schools that are “failing our children.” That’s where we should be spending more money, right?

The optimists’ faith that spending oodles of money will solve any problem is quite touching. In the case of education, though, the spend-more-money theory has actually been tested to destruction in several places. The Thernstroms cover two of these tests in detail in No Excuses: Kansas City, Mo., and Cambridge, Mass.

Kansas City is the more interesting case. The Thernstroms give it a page and a half, leaving out some of the juicier details. There is a much fuller report on the Cato Institute website, written by education reporter Paul Ciotti.

In 1977, when the story begins, Kansas City’s schools were in simply terrible shape. The city, like most others of its size (pop. 460,000), had experienced white flight from the 1950s on, and the school district even more so, even whites resident in the city pulling their kids out of the public schools. By 1977 enrollment was 36,000, three quarters of them racial minorities[/color] (which at that point meant mostly African Americans). The voters had not approved a tax increase for the district since 1969. In 1977 litigation commenced, members of the school board, district parents, and some token children suing the state and some federal agencies on the grounds they had permitted racial segregation. Federal judge Russell Clark, a Jimmy Carter appointee, got the case.

After eight years of litigation, Clark gave the plaintiffs everything they wanted, and then some. He in fact ordered them to “dream” — to draw up a money-no-object plan for the Kansas City school system.

Dreaming is no problem for educationists. The plaintiffs — education activists and their lawyers — duly dreamt, with an initial price tag of $250 million for their dreams. This was twice the district’s normal annual budget.

It proved to be only a start, however. Over the next twelve years the district spent over 2 billion dollars, most of it from the state of Missouri, the balance from increased local property taxes. Fifteen new schools were built and 54 others renovated. New amenities included, Ciotti tells us:
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an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room; a robotics lab; professional quality recording, television, and animation studios; theaters; a planetarium; an arboretum, a zoo, and a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary; a two-floor library, art gallery, and film studio; a mock court with a judge’s chamber and jury deliberation room; and a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability. [Students] could take courses in garment design, ceramics, and Suzuki violin. . . . In the performing arts school, students studied ballet, drama, and theater production. They absorbed their physics from Russian-born teachers, and elementary grade students learned French from native speakers recruited from Quebec, Belgium, and Cameroon. . . . There were weight rooms, racquetball courts, and a six-lane indoor running track better than those found in many colleges. The high school fencing team, coached by the former Soviet Olympic fencing coach, took field trips to Senegal and Mexico. . . . Younger children took midday naps listening to everything from chamber music to “Songs of the Humpback Whale.” For working parents the district provided all-day kindergarten for youngsters and before- and after-school programs for older students.

The whole project was a comprehensive failure. After twelve years, test scores in reading and math had declined, dropout rates had increased, and the system was as segregated as ever, in spite of heroic efforts to lure white students back into the system.

Kansas City did all the things that educators had always said needed to be done to increase student achievement — it reduced class size, decreased teacher workload, increased teacher pay, and dramatically expanded spending per pupil — but none of it worked.

The great C-130-loads of money being air-dropped on the system also brought about waste and corruption on a heroic scale. Theft was rampant. So was overmanning: The project became a huge jobs and patronage program, with the inevitable mismanagement and scandals.


I have just (late 2008) been on GreatSchools.net, looking up Kansas City’s Central High School. That’s the one with the Olympic-size swimming pool; the school was rebuilt from scratch at a cost of $32 million under Judge Clark’s supervision. Nine percent of students are testing “above proficient” in math, against a state average of 46 percent. For Communication Arts the corresponding numbers are 6 percent, 39 percent.

(The Cato report has a postscript on the Sausalito, Calif., elementary-school district, which serves not the prosperous white liberals of that Sausalito, but a mostly-minority public housing project close by. Same limitless expenditures, same results. Kansas City is by no means the only case.)

With some honorable exceptions like the Thernstroms, who, as I have said, give the Kansas City experiment a page and a half in their book, this dismal story has mainly been flushed down the memory hole by education theorists. They would rather not have it mentioned. A decade after the whole thing collapsed in grisly and obvious failure, politicians and edbiz bureaucrats are still routinely calling for more money to be spent on schools as a way to improve student achievement.

Barack Obama, for example. On the 2008 campaign trail, the day before the Martin Luther King birthday holiday, Obama told a swooning congregation at King’s old church that: “We must push our elected officials to supply the resources to fix our schools. . . . We can’t pass a law called No Child Left Behind and then leave the money behind.”

Money is the answer! More money! That’ll fix the schools! That’ll close those pesky gaps!

Education theorists are great forgetters, and were even before Judge Clark came along. The first of the big modern government-sponsored papers on school reform, James Coleman’s 1966 report titled “Equality of Educational Opportunity” (but almost always referred to as “the Coleman Report”), surveyed 645,000 students in over 3,000 schools nationwide. Coleman found almost no relationship between school quality — spending, newness of facilities, teacher credentials — and student achievement.

If you rank schools from worst to best by these measures of quality, then work your way up the ranking from low to high, logging student achievement as you go, once you get above a tiny proportion of really, really bad schools, nothing much changes. A truly excellent school with terrific facilities does somewhat better by its students than a mediocre school, but the difference is not great. What makes the difference is family background.

All this was discovered, at considerable effort and expense, in 1966. Apparently nobody told Judge Clark. Who knows? — perhaps some future government will commission some new study to find out how student achievement relates to school quality. Then, a decade later, perhaps some new federal judge will order some new spend-a-thon, beggaring the taxpayers of his state to no effect at all. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It is not quite true that there is nothing new under the sun, but there is nothing new in education theory, ever: just the same truths, revealed again and again, then pushed down the same memory hole by the same lying careerists, the same wishful-thinking fantasists, and the same parrot-brained politicians.


— John Derbyshire is an NRO columnist and author, most recently, of We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism.

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Stuart,

I never meant to imply that you are not entitled to an opinion different from my own because I’m a teacher. However, before you so flippantly dismiss my sense of feeling insulted, here are some things I would like for people to consider before they place so much of the blame for the state of public schools on classroom teachers:

1. Many of the children we attempt to teach come from families who see us more as a baby-sitting service than anything else; such children are very unlikely to have any intrinsic desire to learn, and furthermore, their parents are not likely to do much to help us deal with their behaviors that disrupt the learning of those students who do wish to learn. Instead, their parents’ attitudes fall along the lines of, “While my child is at school, he’s your problem. Don’t call me bothering me about what he does in your class." Of course, I'm expected to bring such kids under control only with the threat of writing a disciplinary referral and handing it over to an administrator who has about as much desire to deal with the issue as the parents of the child.

2. Many teachers, especially those of us who weren’t taking courses in colleges of education when we were only 18-9 or in our early 20s realize that much of what it being taught in college of education is a bunch of garbage. However, just because we realize that doesn’t change the fact that our employers expect us to use those ideas. I resist, to an extent, but that choice, which I believe is in the best interest of my students, may subject me to disciplinary action, or not having my contract renewed.

3. Many of us devote a great deal of energy trying to impact the lives of our students in a positive way; not just academically, but in terms of attempting to teach basic manners and other important social skills they often aren’t being taught at home. In other words, if we didn’t have to spend so much time teaching things kids should have learned at home, we could focus more on teaching our respective content areas. We do all of this while being subjected to all sorts of undeserved blame, while rarely being thanked by anyone—in spite of the fact that we strive to be good public servants as we are subjected to a lack of adequate supplies and working equipment, to ineffective management, to students who curse at us and even threaten us with violence, to working in buildings that are in such bad condition that they should be blown to smithereens, to having our vehicles vandalized on school property, with no compensation from our employers for their failure to secure the property.

Much more could be said, but I don’t really have the time.

Ryan

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I am sorry you feel insulted, and I also know the difficulties under which you labor. That said, consider that everything you have written confirms what both John and I have said--that the public school system in this country is irremediably busted, and pouring more money into it will not improve matters (and, as the record shows, probably makes things worse). What educational success stories there are in this country are coming from outside the public schools, particularly in regard to the very sort of children you find so difficult to teach. Whether it is Catholic schools, private non-profit schools, or even for-profit schools (to say nothing of home schooling), these institutions work on the same material with which the public schools fail--and usually at a fraction of the cost.

Corrupt, inefficient and ineffective, the public schools are effecting a massive fraud upon the tax paying public, which, having finally wised up, simply refuses to go along with writing a blank check "in the name of the children". If one symptom of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, then the public education system is indeed insane. One should not enable the insane--they might hurt themselves and others.

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I’m not sure that Ryan realizes it, but he presents some very good reasons to get rid of taxpayer financed public schools.

In his first point (that many parents treat public schools like a baby-sitting service) we might compare such individuals to the Baptist single mom in DC who pays to send her children to Catholic schools. What does she tell her kids? "I’m paying an arm and a leg to send you here so you get a better education so you better work hard and do well." And she keeps after them to do their homework and to get good grades.

What’s the parallel in health care? That when the individual does not pay directly he does not really care about the cost and, to a large extent, the quality. We've seen health care costs rise largely because the individual states have mandated that health insurance cover more and more as well as severely limit competition. [This is why “single payer” (socialism) never works.] Even if the funding changed to 50% direct taxpayer funding of education (with full choice of that money going to private or public schools) and 50% tuition (for both private and public schools) the attitude of the parents would change for the better (and even if that remaining 50% was subsidized with a federal tax deduction). When parents pay they want results and economy. Same with health care.

In his second point Ryan is right that a lot of what was taught in college was a bunch of garbage. Those same people are still in charge. What would happen if tax money was not guaranteed only to public schools but if parents could use ‘school choice’ to direct it to private schools? In the medium term (a decade or so) private schools would grow and schools that taught the garbage Ryan speaks about would lose students and financing. The competition would eventually cause them to make changes to teach the basics well (which would mean abandoning a lot of that garbage Ryan speaks about). But those who are in charge now have no reason to change their agenda (and it is an anti-Christian agenda they push). They know they will keep getting their tax money and that it will not be tied to results.

What’s the parallel in health care? Consumer choice raises the level of quality and keeps costs down. When there is only one provider of health care one must put up with rationing and wait lists, and overall mediocre health care. When one may choose from dozens or hundreds of competing companies the ‘garbage’ Ryan speaks about gets thrown away because it can’t keep up with the competition. [And note that the ‘public option’ they are speaking of is, according to both President Obama and Rep. Barney Frank, a first step towards eradicating competition and moving to a ‘single-payer’ system – they know they cannot do it in one step and see it as a multi-year process.]

Ryan’s third point is not directly related to the discussion but he is correct that there are a lot of good teachers out there. I know a number who attempt to do what is right despite the directives from above, and from the politics of the powerful teachers’ unions. Local control of education rather than control from Washington and the State Capitol would give a better voice to the teacher.

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I read this at least four times, and am forced to conclude that it says what the words mean:

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you should abandon your Administrator Alias

This is slightly insane. "Administrator" is not an alias. Moreover, I take it for granted that we all know perfectly well who our Administrator is. He certainly is not concealing his identity behind the term "Adminstrator".

Nor is he using this term to overwhelm disagreement. Our Administrator and I can easily disagree over several issues, and sometimes we do. I've never known him to use any sort of sledgehammer on me. Nor am I accustomed to use one on him.

Now let's put aside ad hominem arguments and get back to issues.

Fr. Serge

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Here is an article by Thomas Sowell [townhall.com] that reiterates what Administrator John was saying:

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The Underdogs
Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, September 22, 2009

It is a good reflection on Americans that they tend to be on the side of the underdog. But it is often hard to tell who is in fact the underdog, or why.

Many years ago, there was a big, lumbering catcher named Ernie Lombardi whose slowness afoot was legendary. Someone once said that not only was Ernie Lombardi the slowest man who ever played major league baseball, whoever was second slowest was probably a lot faster runner than Ernie Lombardi.


When Lombardi came to bat, infielders played back on the outfield grass. That gave them more range in getting to balls that Lombardi hit. They could snare line-drives that would otherwise be base hits. With ground balls, they could easily throw to first base from the outfield grass and get the slow-moving Lombardi out.

Despite all that, Ernie Lombardi had a lifetime batting average of .306 and even led the league in batting a couple of years. But many people said that, if Lombardi had had just average speed, he could have been a .400 hitter.

One day, as a teenager sitting in the Polo Grounds, the stadium where the then New York Giants played, I was privileged to watch a historic event. Ernie Lombardi laid down a bunt!

The crowd went wild. The play took forever, with Lombardi laboriously clumping down to first base-- running as hard as he could, but still not very fast-- while the third baseman made a long run in from left field to get to the bunt.

We cheered ourselves hoarse rooting for big Ernie as he doggedly but slowly made his way down the first base line. He barely beat the throw, which set off another explosion of cheers.

We were not just cheering for a home-town player. We were rooting for Lombardi to get revenge on those who had taken advantage of him for so long. We were cheering for the underdog.

But was Lombardi really an underdog? How many players end up their careers with a lifetime batting average over .300 or with two batting titles? Like most of us, Lombardi was handicapped in some ways and privileged in others.

Many people would consider it a handicap to be a black orphan, born in the Jim Crow South during the Great Depression of the 1930s. But the home into which I was adopted had four adults and I was the only child. Many years later, when I was a parent and asked one of the surviving members of that family how old I was when I started walking, she said: "Oh, Tommy, nobody knows when you could walk. Somebody was always carrying you."

You can't buy that. A leading historian of education has said that the New York City public schools were the best in the country during the 1940s. That was when I went to school there. That was enough piece of sheer good luck that came my way. Today the classes are smaller, the buildings more modern-- but the education itself is a disaster. I got the kind of education that people have to go to expensive private schools to get today.

Perhaps more important, nobody told me that I couldn't make it because I was poor and black, or that I ought to hate white people today because of what some other white people did to my ancestors in some other time.

Nobody sugar-coated the facts of racial discrimination. But Professor Sterling Brown of Howard University, who wrote with eloquent bitterness about racism, nevertheless said to me when I prepared to transfer to Harvard: "Don't come back here and tell me you didn't make it 'cause white folks were mean."

He burned my bridges behind me, the way they used to do with armies going into battle, so that they had no place to retreat to, and so had to fight to win.

One of the problems with trying to help underdogs, especially with government programs, is that they and everyone else start to think of them as underdogs, focusing on their problems rather than their opportunities. Thinking of themselves as underdogs can also dissipate their energies in resentments of others, rather than spending that energy making the most of their own possibilities.

It must have been discouraging for Ernie Lombardi, especially in his early years, to be repeatedly thrown out at first base on balls that would have been base hits for anybody else. But he couldn't let himself dwell on that-- not and win two batting titles.

Copyright © 2009 Salem Web Network. All Rights Reserved.

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Stuart,

That is quite the biased source. The website labels itself as "The Source for Conservative Political News, Cartoons, Issues and Blogs." Might I suggest scholarly or Church-related works, linked, not pasted into the forum, as support for your argument.

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Erie,

Yes, it is a biased source. I already referenced Mr. Sowell as a conservative writer. I hope you do not exclude conservatives as worthy of having opinions on issues, especially in the Town Hall Forum.

But in the end, it would be better for you to refute Mr. Sowell's argument (or, rather, the one made here and supported by his points) instead of attacking the source.

John

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John,

I do not have the time to go around digging up reports or responding to lengthy "articles" to argue our self-appointed experts on all things considered.

I do not exclude conservatives or liberals as "worth of having opinions on issues," but for arguments sake I think as a "faith-based forum" I don't think conservative or liberal publications are a very good reference point. The post began as a discussion on the Q&A from the US Bishops, an Ecclesial Source, a legitimate source for faith-based discussion.

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Erie,

Thank you for your post.

OK, I can understand that you started a discussion you don't have time to participate in. That's fine. But you really cannot ask others not to participate in the discussion you started or not to bring to the discussion their own opinions. And people are people - they bring to discussions all kinds of perspectives. Some are political liberals. Others political conservatives. The current health care debate certainly has political aspects and Christians do have right to comment. We see bishops who support universal coverage and bishops who oppose it. The Q&A you offered from the bishops is not an infallible application of Catholic teaching and a discussion on it is certainly legitimate.

Yes, this is a "faith-based forum". How both conservatives and liberals look at things - including the bishops statements - is a legitimate topic of discussion.

John

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I was given a link about 5 mins ago , which does seem to have some bearing on this thread.

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One of the central complaints against a so-called "public option", a mechanism by which Americans may optionally purchase health insurance via the government, as opposed to private corporations, is that private insurance companies could of course never compete fairly in the marketplace against a such an ultra-efficient juggernaut. This is of course the exact opposite of conservative thinking of the last three decades, in which the government could not possibly -- could not possibly, I say! -- do anything half as competently as our private corporations, which is why everything from Amtrak to the post office has had to fight for every last scrap of congressional support, and why Social Security should be privatized and run by the titans of Wall Street, and why large portions of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are reliant on private companies to the tune of so many billions of dollars that nobody is entirely sure how many billions it is, any more, and is incidentally why our brave American soldiers in Iraq risk electrocution when they step into the shower. ..............

First off, if health insurance companies ran the mail service you couldn't actually expect to send mail anywhere. You would have a list of addresses it was OK to send mail to, and if you wanted to send your packages anywhere else you'd have to deliver it your own damn self.

If health insurance companies ran the mail service, you wouldn't know what it would cost to mail a package, because nobody involved would be able to tell you, even if you spent the better part of a week on the phone with them. You would know what it cost you one only after you received the bill for mailing it. This bill would come one month later, but additional charges would be added a month after that, more additions would come two months later, the total would be revised again in four months, and would be adjusted again after six months. If you want to complain, knock yourself out, but chances are you won't even remember what it was you mailed back in the summer of 2008 or whenever-that-was.........

A very expensive stamp [dailykos.com]



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True, we have a flawed system. But I for one do not trust that President Obama and the Democrats can come to a good solution.

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Angela,

Thanks for that post. It's certainly an interesting perspective.

The first part is rather odd. The government is not an "ultra-efficient juggernaut". Even President Obama has admitted that, promising reform. I've linked somewhere in these discussion the New York Times report that shows that the current government run programs waste 1/3 of the monies allocated to them - lost due to fraud or abuse. If one compares the efficiency of Medicare Part D (medications for seniors, started under President Bush) which is funded by the government but run by private, competing companies, it is far more efficient than regular Medicre/Medicaid.

"Hunter" (the author) rightly notes that conservatism has changed over the years. So has liberalism. Modern conservativism (roughly since the time of President Reagan) is really a variant of classical liberalism. Modern liberalism is more akin to socialism. [Most modern rank & file Democrats are closer to modern conservatives, Democrat Party leadership is much further left towards socialism. Rank & file Republicans tend towards conservativsm. But not all. And Republican leadership is all over the board with no firm convictions at the moment).]

The author engages in hyperbole in ascribing the issues to all health insurance companies. Some are exactly like he describes. Most are pretty good. Independent studies indicate that the issues he mentions are far worse in Medicaid (care for the poor) and notably worse in Medicare (care for the elderly). It's a common practice across the board to re-submit the same claim with a different code to get it approved. In many cases (in private and government run health care) the claim is legitimately denied for failure to properly make the claim. But certainly there are problems.

The author exaggerates again in suggesting that all health insurance companies are inept. He is correct - certainly some are. But in a free market you can choose another provider. When the government controls all you can't and your stuck.

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It did start me thinking, though. Private companies like UPS and FedEx compete perfectly well with the socialist front that is the United States Post Office. How could this be?
Angela didn't quote this part, but it is an interesting question. UPS & FedEx came into being to compete with the post office because people wanted service they could trust (both guarantee delivery and are good at it while the post office is much slower). I have a family member who is a postmaster. He complains about government red tape all the time that prohibits the U.S Postal System from being competitive and cost efficient. I wonder if Hunter (the author) knows that the post office contracts to FedEx the transport its packages since it could not manage do that itself?

The author does not discuss it (so I won't pick on him but will point it out) but the current House legislation is written so that more and more people are forced to take the public option. The equivalent to the FedEx and UPS is that if you are currently in line at FedEx or UPS to ship a package you can stay in line, but next time you need to use the government service.

On another page at that site I found a relevant quote from Senator Orin Hatch (Utah):
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Sen. Hatch: "We have done this long enough to know that when Washington tells you that something costs $5, it always costs at least $10 or more. Guess what? As our deficit continues to rise and our debt triples in the next decade, all of these taxes will continue to rise. This bill is laying -- we are giving washington a new check book. I commend the president's commitment to only sign a bill that does not add a penny to our growing deficit. I sincerely hope that we will apply the same standards of honesty on our accounting of this bill, as we are now demanding from families and businesses. First, it is important to know that most of the major provisions of this bill do not really start until 2013 or 2014. Once a deadly, right after the presidential elections. So the initial 10-year price tag of $856 billion is a significant underestimation. In reality this is not a 10-your score, but a six or seven-year best guess. The real 10-year cost will be significantly higher. More importantly, I am very concerned that this legislation -- that on this legislation, which the chairman rightfully described as 'the single largest social bill as the great depression' we will not have a complete score, at a time when americans all of the nation are outraged some members cannot even know what is in the bill, how can we justify making these decisions without fully understanding the impact of these policies?" [Senate Finance Committee Health Care Reform Mark-up, 9/22/09]
Last week I had spoken with my representative's office to record my opinions. When I started asking about specific provisions in the bill (including abortion coverage) staffer I was speaking with noted that she had no idea where the representative stood on those specific issues, but admitted that the office was getting a lot of calls from knowledgeable constituents.

Again, Angela, thanks for the story. I look at the main pages at that site regularly but did not find this particular story.

John

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Here is a video statement from Bishop Murphy of Rockville Centre, Chairman of the USCCB committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, on behalf of the US Bishops.


Bishop Murphy Addresses Health Care Reform [nyscatholic.org]

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