www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Priestly Society of St Josaphat - keeping latinisms?

There should be no Ruthenian parish with females behind the iconostas dring liturgy; it's expressly forbidden in Ruthenian Particular Law.

Now, the schismatic/vagante "Byzantine Catholic Church, Incorporated" might, but that's NOT properly Ruthenian, even tho' they seem to follow the Ruthenian Recension...

Palm Sunday 2009

Check out Photos

http://picasaweb.google.com/stjohnsmckeesport/PalmSunday2009#
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(altar girls)!.

St John the Baptist Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Slava Isusu Christu!

All I can say from this point is those who support a de-latinizing regime, a total purgation, ultimately encourage our faithful, at least implicitly, to join the Eastern Orthodox Churches. It is simple logic. If we are the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, as some of our clergy and people assert, as the Byzantine Catholic Church, and all Latin devotions are verboten, and the Dogmas and doctrines after the 7th Ecumenical Council are unlawful interpolations in the life of the Church, at worst, and at best just Provincial opinions--why stay united to Rome? I answered that question when I left the BCC. When I came back I had to be honest with myself. Could I lay my hands on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or any other Catholic Catechism, and swear before God in my heart that I believed all things written in that book--and I said Fiat.

I pray to live in constant fidelity and communion with Rome, I am not ignorant of the things you are talking about, but you fail also to see my arguments. So we will leave it at that.

Do I like the Liturgy of the SSJK--I have never been to one, but it would be the Divine Sacrifice, I am sure it would be an honor to attend.

To my Orthodox friends: I know you also see the reality of our Churches and the historical reality of the Unias--why do we not admit the truth? I shall never know. Is not the Truth the most important thing?

In Christ God,


Robert

I doubt that bringing the Byzantine rite to look more... Roman-Catholic means being Catholic! Honestly!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think you know the gist of my argument. But, we must adhere to the Faith that Roman Catholics hold, right? I do not advocate for removal of the iconostasis, low divine liturgies, lace albs, statues in parishes, dis-joining of the Mysteries of Initiation, etc. But, I will not condemn a parish that has these things as a part of its life. Our bishops have already decided against latinization. But, I think my position is to have more openness to sharing and that is not only with Latins, but also with Oriental Catholics as well.

In fact, I know it sounds out there, but if the Pope made us all live together as One Church and not as several ritual Churches I would not be sad about it. Canon Law says we have to be ascribed to a ritual Church--we cannot be members of the Catholic Church at-large or be Universal Catholics. I think we should be and go back to one bishop per city as the ancient canons have it and stop being so tribal and get along, but alas human sin requires us to be tribal and create Jurisdictions to "protect" our ethnic societies and particular traditions and customs and sometimes prejudices and bigotry. I think my thesis moves to critiquing the whole canonical structure of ritual Churches, many which are so small or dying that they soon will need to unite with larger ritual Churches in order to survive.

I think the whole idea of sui iuris ritual Churches needs to be removed from our canonical tradition. And if a ritual Tradition dies because it refused to grow and evangelize, then it is the will of God. We have already critiqued out phyletism and nationalism--may we go a step further. At the time of Christ there was no system of ritual Churches, but one Church. Jesus did not divide the world up into ethnic enclaves called sui iuris ritual Churches--he had and intended us to be one Church of which we are members directly through baptism, not to some ritual Church or National Church. Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" is the true basis for my assertion here. What is our witness when we are so tribal about our Catholic Faith.

But, alas I know canon law has solidified this unnecessary tribal mentality. Maybe someday a Pontiff or a Council will reform this structure to be more coherent with the simplicity of the Apostolic age. Now, I am sure that you assumed I was a trad SSPX Greek Catholic. I have questions about many things in the Church--I cannot be tied down to a genre of factions in the Church, I am sure many of us would shy away from ecclesio-political factions in the Body of Christ. Like I said, I am a work in progress--I have not yet created an orthodoxy of my opinions--God save me if I ever do.

I wish all of you a transformational Holy and Great Week!

In Christ,


Robert

Somewhere in the NT it says, "Speak the truth with love." If by "truth" one means bald, brutal honesty, then that might be a failure to love. While authentic truth and authentic charity never contradict themselves, speaking the truth without kindness and compassion can be an excuse for being uncharitable.

I know this to be so because I have done it and I ain't too proud of it.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Pray for me, a sinner.

Robert

I think there's an important element that is being overlooked in this discussion of "latinisms," and that is the fact that at the time of V-II:
1) "Low Mass" had been the de facto norm for liturgical celebrations in the West for several centuries
2) parochial celebration of the Hours had been virtually eliminated (and still is)
3) the diaconate had been virtually abolished.

Although these were "practices" of the Latin Church, they must be considered anomalous and not part of the Church's authentic tradition, even in the West.

Slava Isusu Christu!

But, then you have the problem of deciding which age is the model for liturgical purity, which I do not believe can be done authentically. It is best to have the Churches deciding for themselves what is best for their people as living members of living Churches. Everyone knows about accretions and "abuses" in the Latin tradition, but the assumption of "abuses" implies that a living body cannot decide for itself the proper way of worshiping for its ecclesial life. I might issue a clarification that what I mean by latinizations is the taking of some liturgical, paraliturgical, and spiritual customs or traditions of another ritual Tradition, not the wholesale abandoning of one's own traditions. I am just weary of assigning judgments to practices in the Church's life, even if they belong to another ritual Church's life. It is very easy for me to imply another tradition has inferior practices, but I do not think it is a correct method of ecclesial, ritual and liturgical katharsis. Abridgment of our liturgical forms is the natural outflowing of being disconnected from the monastic tradition's influence on our parishes--a low or severely abridged divine liturgy, elimination of hours may be appropriate for some parishes with elderly, etc. It should not be denied in pastoral circumstances. Permanent deacons are important, I agree with that.

Again, I think I would like to critique this notion of "authentic tradition." In essence, if we define "authentic tradition" as having longer services and more rich expressions of rite and pomp we are undone as American Eastern Churches by the celebrations of Great Church of Constantinopolis or the monastic liturgical tradition. Or if this "authentic tradition" is 1st-2nd century house church liturgies then we have much undoing to process. Which era shall guide us? I say we have always been guided and God will lead the Church through her bishops and Pope till that final Day before the realization and manifestation of the eschatological Eighth Day.

I am only a member of the laos--let the eparchs decide these matters, I am only a humble servant of the Church--of course conciliarity and collaboration with the laos would be much appreciated:).

Robert

Enough with the false humility, Robert. It's unseemly.

nolite iudicare ut non iudicemini...

Robert since you place so much on the Roman Pontiff and us Eastern Catholics as nothing more than Eastern Rite-Roman Catholics why don't we just give up our Greek Theology and Byzantine Liturgical traditions since we are really just Roman Catholics anyway?

Of course the Holy See has told Eastern Catholics to do the exact opposite of what you speak and to disown the tragic latinizations that were not organic but forced upon us by sadly our own clergy not because it was good for the people. No it was good for them to be as Roman as possible to get equal treatment by Latin monarchs who treaded them (EC Priests) as less than their Roman clerical counterparts.

Rome has come out and rejected Uniatism and returned to the original goal of the reunions - that of full communion between sister churches, fully equal and diverse in theology and discipline and not merely Eastern rite Roman Catholics. I would suggest you read the works of Vatican II, Pope John Paul II and our current Pope. Even further read the Union of Brest.

I still don't know why you support schismatics of the Society of St Josaphat. The UGCC synod has excommunicated them. They haven't repented of their schism and in my opinion their heresy- uniatism. Their liturgy is not a valid liturgy- they are excommunicated.

Just my two sense. If I seem mad I apologize but I'm sick of being told I am nothing more than a Eastern rite Roman Catholic when the Pope tells me to be what I am- Fully Orthodox and in Communion with the See of Peter and witness to that. So either he and I are right and your wrong or your right and the Pope is wrong.

First OCA and second Greek:
http://www.stnina.org/sites/stnina.org/snq-files/images/altar-girl_0.jpg

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/gallery/19/medium/1416.jpg

Breaking the particular law isn't the sole property of any one jurisdiction, Catholic or Orthodox.

Did you mean to say illicit?

I am not a supporter of the Society od St. Josaphat, but your statement that their liturgy is invalid is incorrect. The fact that they are in schism does not make the celebration of the Divine Liturgy-as latinized as it is- invalid. It is regarded as illicit. There is a big difference between a litugy that is invalid as opposed to a litugy that is illicit.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I have nothing more to say about this topic. It was very interesting. Have a blessed remaining Great and Holy Week.

In the Theotokos,


Robert