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Post-Schism Dogmas #374112 01/11/12 11:09 PM
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MengTzu Offline OP
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Dear all,

I'm sure this has been asked many times, and I'm sorry if this is a sensitive topic, but I'm struggling to find a precise answer. What is the obligation of an Eastern Catholic in accepting Post-Schism Dogmas (e.g., Immaculate Conception)?

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374113 01/11/12 11:13 PM
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theophan Offline
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MengTzu:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

Welcome to the forum. You'll find various answers to that question here. My brothers and sisters will be posting shortly. You might also consult a Catholic priest of one of the sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion for that answer, too.

Bob
Moderator

Last edited by theophan; 01/12/12 05:40 PM.
Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374116 01/12/12 12:15 AM
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griego catolico Offline
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MengTzu,

Welcome!

As theophan mentioned, you will most likely get various answers to your question, but I am sure you would want what the magisterium officially teaches.

So, please read the motu proio by Blessed John Paul II, Ad Tuendam Fidem.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374123 01/12/12 01:22 AM
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The young fogey Offline
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Short answer: a Catholic is a Catholic. Greek Catholics officially accept all the post-schism defined doctrines.

Rank-and-file ethnic Greek Catholics: 'We're the same.'

Nuance of that: the high-church Greek Catholics who are as Orthodox as can be, like Rome wants, but are loyal Catholics explain those doctrines in as Byzantine a way as possible. Good ecumenical work? (Small minority of Greek Catholics; usually not ethnic; Roman Riters who've come over.)

The 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' look like the high-church Greek Catholics but say they don't really follow Rome where it differs from the Orthodox. (Even smaller minority than the high-church Greek Catholics.)

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374124 01/12/12 01:24 AM
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The Young Fogey continually makes the mistake of thinking that all Greek Catholics are Ruthenians or Ruthenian-like. I suggest he come visit some of my Melkite brethren to get a somewhat different perspective.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: StuartK] #374127 01/12/12 01:32 AM
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Every Ukrainian Catholic I've known in 30 years is like that. You have a point that the Melkites, from the ecclesiastically fluid Syria, might be more easygoing about those doctrines. (Then again so are ethnic Bad Catholics everywhere: they don't know or don't care but don't intend to defy the church.) I've been to Transfiguration, McLean, and liked it.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374130 01/12/12 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MengTzu
Dear all,

I'm sure this has been asked many times, and I'm sorry if this is a sensitive topic, but I'm struggling to find a precise answer. What is the obligation of an Eastern Catholic in accepting Post-Schism Dogmas (e.g., Immaculate Conception)?


Welcome to Bycath Forum!

I'm a fan of the interviews Catherine Alexander did several years ago with the monks of Holy Resurrection Monastery on various topics available on Your Word from the Wise. Abbot Nicholas speaks in a basic way on this topic in the interview "Eastern Catholic Theology" PART 1 and PART 2. I recommend also the "Who are Eastern Catholics?" with Fr. Maximos PART 1 and PART 2.

In each segment if you click on the "Show More" link below the video you can see a list of all the questions Catherine asks and the monks respond to in that particular video.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: griego catolico] #374158 01/12/12 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by griego catolico

So, please read the motu proio by Blessed John Paul II, Ad Tuendam Fidem.


I've never read this before - thanks for posting. An interesting excerpt:

Quote
B) Canon 598 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches will now have two paragraphs: the first will present the text of the existing canon and the second will contain a new text. Thus canon 598, in its complete form, will read as follows:

Canon 598 – § 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.



Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374162 01/12/12 07:15 PM
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MengTzu Offline OP
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Thank you for all the answers. Let me know if the following statement accurately describes the Church's position: Eastern Catholics must accept the substance of these doctrines, although their understanding of them can based on their own theological traditions, which may differ conceptually and linguistically from the Latin theological traditions, in the context of which these doctrines had been defined.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374166 01/12/12 08:11 PM
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It seems like both these Canons have to do with issues in the west - protestantism and to the other extreme, schisms with SSPX,etc.

It changes nothing in regard to the East, as her bishops are in union with the Holy Father and have not condemned the statements (such as above) as erroneous - to the contrary, some have stated these as revealed Truth and legitimate Traditions of a particular Church.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374168 01/12/12 11:39 PM
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Please have patience with my ignorance, but....

Is the Immaculate Conception (that Mary, daughter of Joachim and Anna was conceived without sin) considered heresy by any canonical Orthodox Church?

Please answer based strictly upon the above, without any consideration of the "original sin" argument.

I'm looking forward to your answers.

Christ is amongst us!
Fr Deacon Paul

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374171 01/13/12 12:37 AM
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Here is something from a Melkite Bishop that may shed some light on your question:

http://www.melkite.org/Questions/R-9.htm






Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: desertman] #374175 01/13/12 01:14 AM
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griego catolico Offline
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Originally Posted by desertman
Here is something from a Melkite Bishop that may shed some light on your question:

http://www.melkite.org/Questions/R-9.htm


My favorite part of his answer:
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There is no 'Eastern truth' vs 'Western truth'. Truth is one. It may be articulated according to various cultural expressions, but truth is super-cultural. Truth should not be restricted by "party line" positions. We should accept or reject ideas for their worth and not for an artificial attachment to a given "identity." The Church teaches truth. If something is true, it would be absurd to say "Oh, we don't believe that in the East." This seems to be where we get short-circuited in ecumenical "dialogue." All too frequently, such "dialogue" seems to presuppose a relativism where you speak "your truth" and I'll speak "my truth" and we'll just leave it at that. A sort of ecumenical schizophrenia.

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: Paul B] #374176 01/13/12 01:14 AM
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Quote
Is the Immaculate Conception (that Mary, daughter of Joachim and Anna was conceived without sin) considered heresy by any canonical Orthodox Church?


I can't speak for any canonical Orthodox Church...however, I can't even consider an answer to this unless you define what is meant by "conceived without sin". Based on the countless discussions that have gone on about this I think the definition of what you are asking is important so all are on the same page...

Re: Post-Schism Dogmas [Re: MengTzu] #374180 01/13/12 03:32 AM
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Doesn't this discussion, ultimately, lead us to one of the fundamental differences in perspective/theology between East and West - Western Christianity's propensity to categorize and define everything and Eastern Christianity's desire to "let the Mystery be" - esp. if it is an issue undefined by early councils?

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