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Originally Posted By: chadrook
Ya know, I wonder if some bishops in ROCOR are starting to think twice?


About what?


I don't mean to speak for our brother chadrook but I believe he is wondering if some ROCOR bishops are thinking twice about reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate and the restoration of communion with certain, more modernist jurisdictions. I can remember the internal struggle many (myself included) had over the reunification in 2007. At the time I attended a ROCOR parish.

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am 50 years old, a convert to Catholicism from Methodism, and I have lots of Russian Orthodox friends, and I attend Church from time to time at the Cathedral in San Francisco, and I have not noticed the kind of problems you relate in your posts. I guess we have differing opinions on the matter. Your opinion of ROCOR is not reflective of the truth (pravda) as I have experienced it. Such is life.


Of course you wouldn't notice, you suffer from the same affliction.

I suffer from no affliction. Be that as it may, I do recognize that my comments are an expression of my opinion, which is why I do not try to have the posts written by others edited or removed.

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Forgive me for asking this question, as it might be inciteful:

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
...supporting a proper canonical structure, that is, a structure that fits with past Orthodox practice (e.g., Cyprus, etc.).

I do not understand how the model of Cyprus can be applied. Cyprus requested its unique status from an Ecum Council.

What Ecum Council is making the decision here? Maybe the matter won't be resolved until the Pan-Orthodox council? Does a Pan-Orthodox Council have the status of an Ecum Council?

Blessings,
Marduk

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Originally Posted by mardukm
Forgive me for asking this question, as it might be inciteful:

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
...supporting a proper canonical structure, that is, a structure that fits with past Orthodox practice (e.g., Cyprus, etc.).

I do not understand how the model of Cyprus can be applied. Cyprus requested its unique status from an Ecum Council.

What Ecum Council is making the decision here? Maybe the matter won't be resolved until the Pan-Orthodox council? Does a Pan-Orthodox Council have the status of an Ecum Council?

Blessings,
Marduk

Evidently Archbishop Kyrill has a broader vision. Perhaps you should send your question to him. Maybe he will even choose to respond to you. You'll never know until you try.

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I find myself in an odd position here.

On one hand, I agree with ROCOR insofar as I do not feel that American Orthodoxy is ready for jurisdictional unity or ready to sever its ties with its Mother Churches in the old world (in fact, I do not think that the former will be a possibility until the latter is).

On the other hand, I think the case that they lay out is canonically quite weak.

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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
Originally Posted By: chadrook
Ya know, I wonder if some bishops in ROCOR are starting to think twice?


About what?


I don't mean to speak for our brother chadrook but I believe he is wondering if some ROCOR bishops are thinking twice about reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate and the restoration of communion with certain, more modernist jurisdictions. I can remember the internal struggle many (myself included) had over the reunification in 2007. At the time I attended a ROCOR parish.


Well I intended to respond quicker but wanted to refrain from all of the emotional baggage that has been left on the thread so far. As far as reunion with the MP. It would have happened eventually. ROCOR looks at it this way; union boiled down to one question. Did the MP repent of its Sergianism? If so then they will be made whole by the return of ROCOR, some would even say that the return made the sacraments of the MP whole and effective.

Knowing ROCOR from the inside, when the term " a pearl of great price," is used it has more than one meaning. ROCOR, has always been ones to hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down to them. I am not talking about the singular examples that people will use to poke holes in my argument,such as Bp Jarome, Blanco, and others. But the vast majority of adherents to the synod, follow tradition that they see as the Orthodox faith handed down to them through the decades. The True Faith. You have to partake of the mysteries in that church to understand it. It is more than an intellectual exercise, don't get me wrong but there are plenty of intellectuals in ROCOR, but it takes a spiritual connection.

An example I can use is when the union was first announced, several people showed up to our humble little church. Ok, nice, more people to "make Gods service." But when it came time for reception of the body and blood of Christ, everyone approached. The priest had to turn them away. They objected, saying they were Orthodox. He simply stated that he didn't see them last night in confession or at vigil. Nor was a call made by their priest saying that they were coming, or even prepared. This certainly caused scandal, but on both sides. I don't know what they thought, but I wondered how fearless they were to approach without preparation. I know that the rules for preparation are different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but here is the ROCOR thinking; that does not make it right.

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American Orthodoxy is so small and anomalous, and probably will stay small. The Orthodox Church is a loose communion of ethnic and national churches very little to do with each other. Rather than one ethnic group in an indigenous church, the American Orthodox replicate the communion they come from, as ethnic enclaves, part of the immigrant experience.

ROCOR = Russian: WWII refugees and a few post-Soviet immigrants, very tiny. OCA = Slavic-American, in theory independent but tiny. Most American Orthodox, as most here know, are immigrant and ethnic Greeks, financially supporting the Ecumenical Patriarch in hostile Turkey. (As does the Carpatho-Russian Diocese.) The embattled patriarchs in the Middle East including Turkey understandably won't let go of American "diaspora" support; they probably need it to survive.

Because of the Greek-American numbers, the Ecumenical Patriarch could probably make American autocephaly happen (Moscow couldn't - not enough Slavic-American Orthodox compared to Greek-American) but understandably won't.

An independent American Orthodoxy of third, etc. generation ethnics and Anglos descended from converts? Probably not. And to give Orthodox conservatives credit, would a church based on America's Protestant culture be even desirable? (Witness American Catholicism's self-Protestantization because of Vatican II and the Sixties: a shell of its peak former self 50 years ago. Before the council, the ethnics had become American but weren't Protestant.)

So I don't see American Orthodoxy changing on this matter. The Greeks, Slavs, and Arabs will keep the Byzantine Rite and their same set of teachings and keep going their separate ways with their ethnic jurisdictions, in communion on paper. Not heretical or necessarily bad. It just is.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
The Greeks, Slavs, and Arabs will keep the Byzantine Rite and their same set of teachings and keep going their separate ways with their ethnic jurisdictions, in communion on paper.


It is more than paper. I have visited most jurisdictions. We all share the same chalice. I always make sure to abide by the discipline of any particular Church....for example, some priests require confession before reception of Holy Communion each week.

My family and I cherish the cultural diversity of Holy Orthodoxy (we are converts). My seven year old is learning Greek and can understand phrases in Church Slavonic and Arabic.

As the Patriarch says, it is a "bond of mutual love that permits us to live together in our diversity." But as he also implies, it can happen "in the more perfect unity of the Spirit." I also agree with the Patriarch that there are diverse needs of the people. It is indeed a unique cultural situation in North America and is not a violation of canonical order. It is also timely and proper to talk about divergent practices that can be corrected or clarified such as, "approaches to fasting; issues of confession and preparation for Holy Communion."

I think his letter was well written and appropriate for the current situation of Orthodox believers in North America.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by The young fogey
The Greeks, Slavs, and Arabs will keep the Byzantine Rite and their same set of teachings and keep going their separate ways with their ethnic jurisdictions, in communion on paper.


It is more than paper. I have visited most jurisdictions. We all share the same chalice. I always make sure to abide by the discipline of any particular Church....for example, some priests require confession before reception of Holy Communion each week.

My family and I cherish the cultural diversity of Holy Orthodoxy (we are converts). My seven year old is learning Greek and can understand phrases in Church Slavonic and Arabic.

As the Patriarch says, it is a "bond of mutual love that permits us to live together in our diversity." But as he also implies, it can happen "in the more perfect unity of the Spirit." I also agree with the Patriarch that there are diverse needs of the people. It is indeed a unique cultural situation in North America and is not a violation of canonical order. It is also timely and proper to talk about divergent practices that can be corrected or clarified such as, "approaches to fasting; issues of confession and preparation for Holy Communion."

I think his letter was well written and appropriate for the current situation of Orthodox believers in North America.


The first time you received the mysteries in ROCOR wouldn't have happened to have been in Texas?

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Originally Posted by chadrook
The first time you received the mysteries in ROCOR wouldn't have happened to have been in Texas?


No. Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, NY.

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Here I go again. I agree with much of Young Fogey' s assessment, much as it pains me to so state.

As to ROCOR, from east of the Mississippi and north of St Louis at least, many cradle Orthodox tend to share my feelings to some degree. The ROCOR's bishops (excepting the saintly +Laurus), many clergy and most faithful exhude a sense of smugness stemming from their sincere belief that they possess a spiritual superiority compared to most others based on the ROCOR'S systemic incorporation of a stern Russian pietetic practice.

I understand Chadrook's analysis, but his very choice of words lends credence to my argument: " ROCOR looks at it this way; union boiled down to one question. Did the MP repent of its Sergianism? If so then they will be made whole by the return of ROCOR, some would even say that the return made the sacraments of the MP whole and effective. " I doubt Patriarch Kyril - their Primate - would stand for such arrogant nonsense.

Again, for decades, by choice, they walled themselves off from the Body of the Church. Since it is clear they can not obtain an American Church which makes their practices normative, they can not participate in good conscience any further.

I concede there is much to admire about their rigidity in an uncertain world. But for as much as we can benefit from them, in order to be complete, they can learn from us.

I do get it. I respect their clarity but as to their decision: I disagree wholeheartedly.

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As I understand it, ROCOR wasn't fanatical to begin with; it was simply tsarist Russian. Then there was the turf war with the Metropolia when ROCOR came to America after WWII. The craziness came in when they let in fanatical anti-Catholic Greek Old Calendarists in the '60s (mad about the calendar change and about the Ecumenical Patriarch being nice to the Pope). They left, but left their mark in ROCOR. (One observer has said it's like there have been two ROCORs, not knowing what the other is up to: the nice Russian exiles and the crazies who came on board later.) I thought the regularization with Russia made the crazier converts leave. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by DMD
The ROCOR's bishops (excepting the saintly +Laurus), many clergy and most faithful exhude a sense of smugness stemming from their sincere belief that they possess a spiritual superiority compared to most others based on the ROCOR'S systemic incorporation of a stern Russian pietetic practice.


Wow! That's an unfortunate statement. You judged the bishops, clergy and faithful of being "smug".....in a sweeping generality.

That is a rather smug statement. frown

Lord have mercy!





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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by DMD
The ROCOR's bishops (excepting the saintly +Laurus), many clergy and most faithful exhude a sense of smugness stemming from their sincere belief that they possess a spiritual superiority compared to most others based on the ROCOR'S systemic incorporation of a stern Russian pietetic practice.


Wow! That's an unfortunate statement. You judged the bishops, clergy and faithful of being "smug".....in a sweeping generality.

That is a rather smug statement. frown

Lord have mercy!


The man's a born Orthodox of 60 from a priestly family so he knows his church's politics, so he knows what he's talking about.

Respect.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
As I understand it, ROCOR wasn't fanatical to begin with;


And they are not "fanatical" now.


Originally Posted by The young fogey
The craziness came in when they let in fanatical anti-Catholic Greek Old Calendarists in the '60s (mad about the calendar change and about the Ecumenical Patriarch being nice to the Pope). They left, but left their mark in ROCOR.


Fanatical anti-Catholic Greek Old Calendarists?!? This is getting very uncharitable.

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