www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Father Keleher and St Mark of Ephesus

We've no desire to be OC in reverse.

There is peace on the board and the only scandal that exists to the minds of most of us is whatever is stuck in the eye of those who see such here. Consult an ophthalmologist, perhaps he or she can help you with that.

Many years,

Neil

Like I said, if you use a Catholic name but are nonsectarian, there's a problem; the fine print at the bottom of the page doesn't suffice.

The relativism here is simpatico with the spirit of the times ("COEXIST"). It resembles the new high-church Episcopalianism - credally and liturgically almost conservative enough to please real conservatives, ecclesiologically liberal enough to please liberals. Plus it's small enough for the mainstream not to take seriously; it's cute. And political correctness works for it: unlike Latin Catholicism old and new, it's exotic. But my guess is such a version of "Byzantine church" is not going far and probably will fade away, a niche/hobby religion for some intellectuals, just like the new high-church Episcopalians.

If they decided to do as you suggest, I wouldn't object and would still post here; but I think it should be pointed out that The Byzantine Forum is only one part of the byzcath.org website. I.e. it's a non-sectarian (cf TYF ) forum on a Byzantine Catholic website. Which some may, of course, be unaware of since many of us call the forum "byzcath".

I'd still post here too.

Christ is in our midst!!

Apparently some of the new and old members have either forgotten or simply ignored a very important thread that is posted as "sticky" in Town Hall. It was made this way for a numbr of good reasons--one of which has cropped up in the recent set of threads that have become so unChrisitan--and we refer people to it time and again when it seems the atmosphere that we try to foster starts to unravel. May I suggest we all take a fresh look at it. It's part of the agreement we sign onto when we ask for membership here, whether we let it register in our minds or not.

This board has grown since its domain name was established. Would that the people who come here might also grow with us.

A further point to be made is that the Church headquartered in Rome--Vatican City--has no corner on the name "Catholic," though it has held itself out to be so for centuries in the Western world and wherever it has dominated the writing of history. In the East, the Greeks were known as the "Romans" under the Ottomans and we, Latins (I am one), were known to the locals as the "Frankish Church." It depends on who is writing history and who is labeling the players.

There is no need to attack the people who make up this board or the Admins who have chosen to not only provide us with this place but also have chosen to pick the moniker in the long distant past when this board was established.

Bob
Moderator

Like Marist College, which still has the Marist Order and some other Catholics, but is no longer Catholic, maybe it's time to become byzchristian(s).org or implement my suggestion.

There is only one church, as the Catholic Church teaches.

Given my Anglican background - high-church Episcopalians, thanks to Episcopal semi-congregationalism, were able to practice and teach me (born Episcopal) pre-Vatican II Catholic culture, after Vatican II - I have no problem sometimes describing the body of belief we share - God, Christ, Trinity, hypostatic union, Mother of God, bishops, the Mass/Real Presence, and the option of images - as Catholic, whether it's in the church or out of it.

And most of the Christian East is simply an estranged part of the Catholic Church; yes, the one headquartered in Rome, as Metropolitan William and the Byzantine Catholic Church in America, whose name this site uses, believe and teach.

Dear Serge,

I agree with you that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

But the Orthodox believe they are and that Rome fell away due to heresy and the imposition of Latin theologoumena, including papal jurisdiction and infallibility that were not universally shared in the first millennium.

And the Orthodox Church does include "Catholic" in its formal title.

So what's to be done?

Alex

1. Be under Rome and follow the magisterium.

2. If you are called to, learn as much as you can about the Orthodox tradition.

3. Support unlatinized Byzantine Catholicism both as good in itself and as a witness to the Orthodox.

4. At the same time, support the Byzantine Catholics who use latinized forms, their longstanding choice.

Each Catholic forum/blogger/etc claims that they're representing the views of the magisterium. Experienced readers take that claim with a grain of salt.

Alright as long as it isn't in a condescending fashion.

I think I know the difference.

Examples:

The magisterium: Jesus is true God and true man, so Mary is the Mother of God. Bishops are the successors to the apostles. The Mass makes Christ's sacrifice present. The Pope shares in the church's charism of infallibility.

Me: The church was better off before Vatican II; for example, the old Mass is better.


Fine with me.

This is generally sound advice and what is expected of Catholic posters. I will only quibble with #4, since Rome clearly instructed Eastern Christians to de-latinize and return to the normative forms of Byzantine Liturgy, and only to allow change only in concert with the Orthodox. Support them but also lead them. My opinion here has been unchanging, following the wisdom of Pope John XXII: "See everything. Change a little. Overlook the rest." [Meaning de-latinize slowly, and with great care.]

The problem is, of course, that what one person sees as an acceptable post the next person sees as heresy. I am routinely accused of being a Latinizer, Vostochnik, pro-Orthodox, anti-Orthodox, pro-RC, anti-RC, Protestant, Conservative, Liberal and a whole lot of other things (sometimes all in the same week!). I can sympathize with the complaints of harassment some of our posters receive from other posters. Our moderators show great leeway and I thank them for their work here.

As to some of the other posts, yes, The Byzantine Forum is an ecumenical forum. In his Apostolic Letter, Orientale Lumen, Saint John Paul the Great stated that "one important way to grow in mutual understanding and unity consists precisely in improving our knowledge of one another" (#24). That is the purpose of this forum: to improve our knowledge of one another. As such, all forms of theological opinions (and especially Eastern Christian ones) are welcome to be placed upon the table for discussion. If posters think someone has misrepresented Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant or Jewish theology (etc.) then they are called to correct it (using charity at all times).

As to the website url (byzcath.org) and the name "The Byzantine Forum", no changes have ever been considered and are not now under consideration. byzcath.org is not dissimilar to catholic.com and other sites and forums that are unofficial, which exist to help build up the Church through witness. We have noted in the past that the title "The Byzantine Forum" has grown to include participants and readers far beyond the Byzantine Churches. Noted, but no sense changing the title after almost 18 years. And, yes, we are tiny compared to the rest and they are so much better at everything than we are.

Thank you. Respectfully disagreeing with your first and last points.

The beauty of Catholicism is it DOESN'T force you to hate one for the sake of loving the other. The latinized forms have existed for centuries, as indeed they did in ACROD [sarumuse.wordpress.com] for decades, and can go on forever as far as I'm concerned. So can the unlatinized forms.

The comparison to Marist College holds for the domain name. I can see why some think that's persnickety.

Thanks, for your points, Neil, Bob, Alex, and John. Peter J, you're on the money.

In terms of "Catholics" Why would one need to be "under the magisterium?" Can someone describe what it means to be "under the magisterium? I can understand if one is under Rome. However, what of one who isn't under Rome (nor should they be considered such), like a UGCC fellow, or gal?

I'm not sure whether we've had a thread on this or not, but my understanding of "the magisterium" is that it isn't specifically Latin (unlike eg the Vatican's Pontifical Councils).

Dear Lester,

Well, the UGCC is "under Rome" jurisdictionally and as much as we "doth protest" that it is otherwise via our ecclesial Particularity - that is largely wishful thinking on our part.

But all Catholics of all Particular Churches are obliged to obey the Magisterium, the Teaching authority of the Church that expounds what we are to believe and how we are to act in accordance with Cahtolic moral principles.

I don't know if that answers your question.

Alex