The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Mwl, Rickey, Mamo, TomSpirit, JeffMByzOFS
5453 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Deacon El), 42 guests, and 105 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,435
Posts410,221
Members5,453
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#417298 - 08/08/17 09:37 PM Procopius of Ustiug question  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 100
LittleFlower Offline
Member
LittleFlower  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 100
Canada
I am a convert from Russian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and I'm having a difficult time. I know our faith isn't based on private revelations but there are some things I just can't seem to put together.. For example, from the Catholic side we have miracles were Our Lady herself speaks in support of the Immaculate Conception, the Papacy (Our Lady of Good Success).. There are converts from Orthodoxy who went on to live very holy lives such as Mother Catherine Abrikosova or Blessed Leonid Fyodorov.

I always heard about Orthodox miracles too but I thought, there's no contradiction, they have the Eucharist after all. Recently I read about Orthodox Saint Procopius of Ustiug and I just can't figure out how to understand it all. In Orthodox writings they say he was Catholic and then saw the beauty of the Byzantine liturgy in Novgorod and became Orthodox. But a copy of Latin psalms were found on him as he died and I read that the Schism wasn't immediate... The excommunication between the representatives of the East and West happened in the 11th century but most ordinary people didn't even know about it and the Schism took a few centuries.. Especially in Russia which was more removed. Procopius lived in the 1200is and died at the very beginning of the 1300s. So was there even a Schism there at the time? However the West attempted to invade Novgorod in the 1200s and a lot of the events were related to political situations relating to the Schism so I don't know... I can't tell if he just wanted to be Eastern, or if he wanted to leave union with Rome and was aware of that.

The reason I'm asking is because he went on to live a really humble life filled with miracles! If the Catholic Church is the true one how do we understand that? I'm wondering if anyone knows the history and maybe Novgorod wasn't aware of the schism at the time? Or is there some explanation?

And on the other hand there are all those Catholic miracles clearly and explicitly supporting Catholic doctrines like the Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception etc! I am Catholic but I struggle with fear and scruples and something like this is very confusing to me and I just can't figure out how to put it all together with the Catholic understanding. Today I honestly felt like I was losing my faith and had a strong temptation to give up. I got so afraid I'm wrong in being Catholic but I'm afraid to leave Catholicism too. There are reasons I believe in the Catholic Church.. I would appreciate any thoughts and prayers.. Or any information that could help me understand the Orthodox Saint i read about.. Thank you

Last edited by LittleFlower; 08/08/17 09:40 PM.
#417303 - 08/09/17 10:45 AM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 551
Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
Member
Economos Roman V. Russo  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 551
Brooklyn, NY USA
The Catholic Church is the Orthodox Church of the West. The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church of the East. Unfortunately, by and large, these two family members are not in communion with each other. That is the sin of schism!

#417344 - 08/24/17 07:27 AM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3
Don Fannuci Offline
Junior Member
Don Fannuci  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3
Florida
Little Flower:

Procopius of Ustyug may or may not have formally "converted" to Eastern Orthodoxy. Very likely, he was like the vast majority of laymen of the time, who simply knew they were Christians and didn't pay much attention to ecclesiastical geo-politics. When Procopius lived in Germany, he worshiped the way Latin Christians did, and when he moved to Russia, he worshiped the way the Russians did. Or maybe he was indeed a convert to Orthodoxy. So what? The same God who performs from within His visible Church can also perform them outside it, whether among heretics, schismatics, or even infidels. He doesn't necessarily perform these wonders in order to confirm the truth of any particular religion; He may well perform them in order to confirm particular truths which non-Catholics share with Catholics, or simply because He is the Father of all men and desires to do good things for His children, their false beliefs notwithstanding. The presence of miraculous phenomena outside the Church poses interesting questions, but it isn't faith-refuting.

#417404 - 09/08/17 09:05 AM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 100
LittleFlower Offline
Member
LittleFlower  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 100
Canada
Thank you! Of course I agree that God could work miracles wherever He wants. There also seems to be a lack of historical consensus in the sources that I read, about when the Schism really became apparent - many people might not have known about it at first and one source talked about it being more known in the 1200s..

#417663 - 10/25/17 04:45 PM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
Protopappas76 Offline
Member
Protopappas76  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
State of Washington
What schism? Between which Churches? Between which patriarchates?

#417664 - 10/25/17 04:54 PM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
Protopappas76 Offline
Member
Protopappas76  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
State of Washington
What schism? Between which Churches? Between which patriarchates? Rome and Antioch, for example, had no definitive date for any sort of split. The problems between Old Rome and New Rome were not the problems of Antioch. We were trying to survive as Christians in a world now dominated by the bad news of Mohammed. For the Church of Antioch the fall of the Islamic curtain caused an inability to even communicate.

#417671 - 10/25/17 07:27 PM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,231
theophan Offline
Moderator
theophan  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,231
Hollidaysburg, PA
[quote][I am a convert from Russian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and I'm having a difficult time. I know our faith isn't based on private revelations but there are some things I just can't seem to put together../quote]

Christ is in our midst!!

Little Flower:

You may be having difficulty because you are trying to put borders on the work of the Holy Spirit. None of us has a hold on the Holy Spirit. As many of the Fathers and other spiritual writers will attest, the Spirit "blows where He wills." Holiness has no borders. Personal holiness isn't limited to members of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, or any other community that professes Christ and gives the Holy Spirit a place to work.

Having the Eucharist may not be necessary for personal holiness to manifest itself, unless you would limit the Holy Spirit. What of those people in prison camps who are cut off from the Eucharist but still manage to advance far in the life of holiness?

Miracles aren't the measure of the Faith. They are prophetic signs that the Holy Sprint is still at work among us. But they are not necessary--the Deposit of Faith is necessary and there is no adding to it.

Bob

#417672 - 10/25/17 07:47 PM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1
kimsy Offline
Junior Member
kimsy  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1
Toronto
Nobody is obligated to believe in private revellations.In the catholic catechism,they are referred to as so-called private revellations.They are a danger to believe in at full face value.For example,we read Mary Margaret allegedly recieved private revllations from Christ regarding the sacred heart.However,upon further inspection,Mary Margaret licked vomit as a form of penance and often starved herself.THIS can lead to hallucinations and is a sign of mental illness.Lucy
of Fatima claimed prophecy(START OF WORLD WAR II) but did so after the events took place.Her claims of hell,purgatory,etc were made in a book released in the early 1940s BUT in her original claims from 1917,none of that was mentioned.A friar who knew her as a kid stated she was prone to story telling.Approval of a private revellation does not garantee the truth of the facts or its authenticity. When pope liberius excommunicated Athanasius for holding Jesus was true GOD and the pope and most bishops embraced the heresy of Arianism which the laity resisted by holding to Jesus being God and not a creation of God), WHY DIDNT JESUS OR MARY appear to the laity or Athanasius to encourage them against this crisis ? My point is private revellation,just like infallibilty is very rare.

#417809 - 12/06/17 09:43 PM Re: Procopius of Ustiug question [Re: LittleFlower]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Michael1 Offline
Junior Member
Michael1  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Poland
Dear Little Flower

I strongly recommed you - St John of the Cross (Doctor of the Church) "The Ascent of Mount Carmel".
In the "era of Medjugorje" this is the best guide on miracles, prophecies and visions possible.

all the best
Mike


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2017. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 14 (0.005s) Memory: 1.7226 MB (Peak: 1.9010 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-15 16:01:05 UTC