www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology A Question for Rob Sweiss

Rob,
You said in one of your posts: "My father and many others used to tell me that they became Latin because of the material wealth they gave out." What material wealth? What exactly did the Catholics do? I am asking sincerely, I do not doubt what you say, but I was wondering what sort of thing you were referring to.

(BTW, I was wondering if you could do me a favor: on my browser your paragraphs don't come out and it is hard for me to read your longer posts. If you could stick 2 carriage returns between paragraphs, my eyes would be very grateful!)

Thanks!

Yeah! Hey! I'm still technically a Latin - where's the money trough? I'm there!

Gordo, sfo

Dear Philothea,

Rome sent missionaries not with an empty

hand to the Middle East. They provided

clothing, food, and other services only if

you came to celebrate their Mass with them.

I may admire the humanitarian aide but I

don't not admire the conversions to

Catholicism from the Orthodox flock. The

Patriarchy of Jerusalem was and is still a

poor hiearchy in terms of watching over her

flock. There is a Latin Church still in

operation in my village of Fuheis, Jordan.

I recall many stories that my grandparents

told about the Orthodox converting to

Catholicism especially some of my

relatives. The conversions were encouraged

by the Latins. When family relatives became

angry with their Orthodox priest they headed

to the Latin Church. For the most part, the

Latin Church stayed out of the problems and

disputes. If there were two Orthodox,both

were first cousins, who wanted to get

married the Orthodox Church would say no and

the Latin Church would say yes. They would

eventually be married in the Latin Church.

The Latin missionaries opened up social

institutions such as hospitals, schools,

clubs, etc and provided employment. One can

argue as to why didn't the Patriarch of

Jerusalem provide help if the Latin's were

just doing the "right" thing. The

Patriarchy has suffered from being under the

yoke of the Ottoman Empire who in turn

implanted a corrupt Greek hierarchy to rule

the Fertile Crescent region for the next

four to five centuries. Those were

miserable days for Arab Orthodox people who

had barely a descent standard of living. As

you may or may not know, converting Muslims

to any religion other than their own would

be met out with severe consequences. The

Latin missionaries could only convert the

uneducated and naive Orthodox because they

did not have the Pope as the Head of the

Church. It is no wonder that the Balamand

Statement is a form of confession in regards

to sheep-stealing from the Orthodox. The

Orthodox could not be stealing sheep from

anybody because the Latins were the

foreignors doing the "blessed work". There

were good incentives to becoming a Latin

because after all the Pope is the "Head of

the Church" and He has sent his aides to

help the "schismatics". This is one

sensitive issue that tends to arrouse me

because of the rift it has created amongst

my ethnic people, the Arabs.

Rob -

I believe that she said "between paragraphs" not sentences!

I followed you all the way up to the part about the marriage of first cousins. My understanding (which is somewhat limited) is that the Latin code forbids the marriage of 1st cousins due to consanguinity. Any attempted marriage in a Latin Church of two 1st cousins would involve an impediment and thus not be a true marriage.

Are you sure that you have your facts straight on that incident?

Peace,
Gordo, sfo

Dear Dozier,
Sorry about the sentences. I must have been listening to Frank Sinatra, "I did my way." LOL.
I am postive that is what happened regarding marriages between first cousins. My eyewitnesses I have and the people in my village know it. Even the Orthodox and Latin Churches are aware of it in my village. When you have close competition in you neighborhood you bet you are going to market yourself as best as possible to take as many of the "schismatics" into your church because they cannot convert the Muslims. Just ask the Latins overseas. They sure knew on how to capitalize and take advantge of the poor circumstances of that time. What is interesting in Jordan about the Latins as well as the Byzantines is that they are the only (Roman)churches in the world that celebrate Pascha according to the Orthodox method of calculation with the Orthodox Church. It is too bad that the churches in the West and elsewhere cant follow the example set forth in Jordan by those communities. To those of you celebrating Pascha, Happy Pascha even though it should be celebrated next week according to the First Ecumenical Council cannon. At any rate, Christ is Risen. Indeed He is Risen.


In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

Dear Robert: Christ is Risen!!! Thank you for your kind greetings for the commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ. As I celebrated the feast last night at liturgy, but especially today when I celebrated at table with friends (who are not church goers) I realized that the Resurrection of Christ comes to all who accept the faith of the Gospel,and also to all who are of good will ("peace, to men of good will"). Although it is important for us all to celebrate the Paschal feast together (I am very grateful for the Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue that is attempting to set a common date so that we don't let the non-baptized see us in disarray), I guess that the Resurrection of Christ can be celebrated at any time, and especially when we are in need of the graces that come with our recognition of His Resurrection as the foundation of our belief. (I really needed the Resurrection message when my Mom had a stroke and lay near death in the Hospital. It got me through some VERY bad days.) I was very afraid and the realization that Christ rose from the dead, and is in charge of all human affairs gave me the strength to do what needed to be done. Although it was November, I found myself humming "Christ is Risen from the dead...." When I realized what I was doing, I thought I was going nuts. And then I realized, ....I'm not nuts, I'm calling upon the Risen Christ to be with me and my family.

So, I'm very happy to once again be celebrating the Resurrection with the community, with the full recognition that it's a year-round feast for our benefit, especially when we are most in need.

My brothers and sisters: Christ has risen from the dead as He foretold. And we are the beneficiaries of His great promise and victory of death.

Blessings to All!

Dear Dr. John,
Before I read your kind post I was reading the book,"The Church of the Ancient Councils," by Archbishop Peter L'Huillier that revealed the confussion as to when the Pascha was to be celebrated. This was a very serious issue back then as I truly believe it is for today between the Eastern and Western Churches. Can anyone explain why the Western church does not follow the cannon of the First Ecumenical Council in observance of the Paschal date as the Orthodox do?

Christ is Risen. Indeed He is Risen!
Robert Sweiss

>>Can anyone explain why the Western church does not follow the cannon of the First Ecumenical Council in observance of the Paschal date as the Orthodox do?<<

There is no canon from the First Ecumenical Council regarding the observance of Pascha. There is only a recommendation in the form of 'it seems best'. And, in reality, neither the Catholic nor Orthodox Churches implement the recommendations to the letter since both interpret one of the clauses differently. The East insists that Pascha cannot be celebrated until after the conclusion of Jewish Passover and the West understands this phrase to mean 'regardless of the date of the Jewish Passover'. Add to this that the West uses the Gregorian Calendar to calculate the equinox while the East uses the Julian Calendar (which, given enough centuries will put Pascha in August and then December!). Then to top off the confusion it was still many centuries after the First Nicean Council before Christians managed to get the system worked out. And to pile on, sometimes when the two Paschas are five weeks apart, the Jewish Passover is smack in the middle two weeks after the Western Pascha and two weeks before the Eastern Pascha!

I don't have all the details of the proposals being discussed in the Catholic/Orthodox and Orthodox / World Council of Churches dialogues but I do know that one of the recommendations is that all Churches use the date and time of the equinox as calculated astronomically for Jerusalem. The Catholic Church supports a common date as do most Protestants. The Orthodox Churches are mixed with some supporting the idea and some rejecting it. Unfortunately, since 1453 and the fall of the Byzantine Empire there is no one to call a pan-Orthodox Council so unless every single Orthodox Church agrees to a change nothing will happen.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
In latin Church 1st cousins can marry if they receive dispensation from proper church authority (bishop, I think).
Dear Robert,
Hear is another interesting example concernig sheep-stealing in cases related to marriage problems: http://chat.goarch.org/scripts/chat.dll?13@9.bddLauILa8e^15@.ee6c132/22
Stephanie Holman - 11:27am Nov 8, 1999 EST (3.)
remarriage

I am not Orthodox. I am Roman Catholic and dating a man who is Orthodox. I was married in the Roman Catholic Church and divorced. I am currently waiting for an annulment from the Roman Catholic Church. Can my boyfriend an I marry in the Greek Church? Do we need to wait for the annulment? Also, what steps need to be taken to convert? I originally thought I would not convert, but I know I will always attend cerimonies, Holidays and Sunday masses with him and we intend on raising our children Orthodox so I now think that I should convert but would like more information. Also, If I do convert, does the Orthodox church recognize my prior marriage?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fr. Charles Joanides - 11:53am Nov 8, 1999 EST (3.1)
Interfaith Marriage Researcher
marriage

Dear Stephanie,

The following information should help answer your questions. If you have any additional questions, please write back.

Question #1: I was married in the Roman Catholic Church and divorced. I am currently waiting for an annulment from the Roman Catholic Church. Can my boyfriend and I marry in the Greek Church?

If you have a civil divorce as your statement implies, you will not need to wait for an annulment to marry in the Greek Orthodox Church, so long as there are no other impediments. I would suggest that you visit a Greek Orthodox Priest so that he can do a thorough assessemnt of (a) your eligibility to marry in the Greek Orthodox Church, and (b) your boyfriend's eligibility to marry in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Regarding the date for Easter, it should be stated that neither west nor east calculates date of the vernal equinox - it is fixed on march 21st, although this year fo example equinox took place on march 20th (gregorian).
Robert,
Are you in communion with Orthodox Church in Finnland? They use western method for calculating Pascha.
In Christ
piotr c

Dear piotr c,
I believe you were trying to imply that the Greek priest was sheep stealing when in fact the Roman Catholic woman has asked about conversion to Orthodoxy. She was the one who came to the forum seeking the truth and asked what to do to facilitate her conversion. The priest was honest and sincere in his reply. At any rate, the Orthodox Church forbids marriages to first cousins even though people still do it in the Middle East and here in the U.S. I believe there are harmful effects for such a close blood union. I also think many Westerners and Churches stand against such unions. To marry close first cousins in the Middle East meant preserving their estate and values to their very own tribes and families. They tend to be closed and isolated groups who oppose foreign assimilation.
Also in regards to the Paschal date calculation I believe the Orthodox Churches are right on the dot. I have never known the Orthodox Church of Finland to use the western method for calculating Pascha. Maybe what you meant to say is that they utilize the Gregorian calendar but celebrate the Paschal celebration with all the Orthodox Churches worldwide. I am interested in researching this out.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

>>Regarding the date for Easter, it should be stated that neither west nor east calculates date of the vernal equinox - it is fixed on march 21st, although this year fo example equinox took place on march 20th (gregorian).<<

The vernal equinox is fixed but, because of our time zones, may actually occur on different days in different parts of the world. It can occur as early as 2:00 PM GMT on March 19th and as late as 7:00 PM GMT on March 21st. Since the Vernal Equinox is astronomically the center point of the Equatorial Sky Chart it will differ slightly from different parts of the earth. One can easily see how the combination of time zones and international date lines could cause the calculations to differ. That is why the proposals on the table in the dialogues I referenced above suggest calculating the date of Pascha based upon the vernal equinox in Jerusalem.

The date of the equinox used in the Eastern method of calculating the date of Pascha is Julian Calendar March 21st (currently Gregorian April 3rd). This year, since the full moon is April 18th there is only one week difference since East requires that Passover be completed before Pascha can be celebrated. In other years a full moon falling after Gregorian March 21st and before Julian March 21st can cause the East to wait for another full moon, oftentimes delaying Pascha five weeks.

The Orthodox Church of Finland does use the Western date of Pascha. This was a conscious decision by a Synod of the Orthodox Church of Finland to provide a common witness of the Resurrection with other Christians.