www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology OO: Musical Instruments and Kneeling

To my Oriental Orthodox brethren:

It is not uncommon for Armenian Apostolic Christians to use musical instruments and to kneel during our Divine Liturgy on Sundays. What is the practice of your Churches?

I know that you Armenians use organ in the liturgy, and sometimes small percusive instruments, since when id you start doing that? was it an influence from the Latin Church (the organ I mean?). I was also curious about that, and wanted to know.

We use cymbals and triangles. The were originally just allowed to keep time since we're not supposed to use instruments. I've never heard of the Armenians using organs, I'll have to remember to ask about that. Generally, we kneel on Sundays. This is wrong, and many priests try to correct it. It's because in Egypt Friday is the day everyone has off, not Sunday, since it's a Muslim country. So the big Liturgy there is on Friday, when kneeling is legal. Then people come here, and the big Liturgy is on Sunday as it should be, and kneeling is not legal, but they're used to kneeling at Church. Being used to kneeling, people feel irreverent standing and bowing. A little over a half dozen people do it right at my church, including the priest.

Thanks, Coptic Orthodox, for your reply. Armenians do use organs. I'm an Armenian and speak from experience. That's very interesting about how kneeling found its way into your Liturgy. Perhaps this is how it found its way into ours.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. DerGhazarian

We use only the voice (unless you count handbells and the ripidia with the bells on the edges). But it is not all that uncommon in India to find larger parishes that'll have an all out orchestra (albeit, with traditional Indian instruments). Traditional instruments sound good. Unfortunately, some use those electronic keyboards that have organ settings or something, and it just sounds horrible. When our parish had an American gentleman convert to Orthodoxy (he even became a Deacon!), he used to play an organ (he was an organist), and so for a while, we had an organ, but eventually, it was out.

Dear M,

This man about town sounds like someone I could really get along with.

He also tried to play some Melkite hymns on that organ .

In Christ ,
S

I believe that in the Byzantine tradition, instruments must still be banned in the liturgy because this tradition had always be respected and keeps the sacrad music away of any coruption. (somebody mentioned here some Greek parishes with organs, Byzantine liturgies with guitars in Kosice, hehe)

I don't mean that instruments are evil or anything like that. In the Latin Church there's always the great work of the sacred composers, like Mozart, Beethoven, etc.

However there are instruments that should always be banned for liturgical purposes in any rite, specially those that are in close relationship with banal aspects of life, such as the piano, the guitar or the mandoline. The piano appeared in the XIX century and it was often confined to "bad" places, specially in the American continent, and the guitar, since the Middle Ages was used for trobadour songs of irreverent character, same with the mandoline. In the old Spanish art, in the pictures of Hell, the devils were depicted strumming mandolines. Then the guitar was always part of songs that tend to enphasize human passions and banal aspects of life, such as Rock music, or these funny Mexican songs that are sung at the end of a party .

The arrival of these instruments would sure create a desacralized environment. I have had these converstions with a (Roman Catholic) friend. It has been very hard for me to explain her why the Eastern tradition does not permit instruments in the Church, and why some instruments tend to create a desacralized environment. But it has been very dificult, I dont know why, maybe cause she doesn't see a clear distinction between the sacred and the non-sacred. What do you think?

I don�t know why kneeling would not be �legal.� In fact there are parts of the Liturgy when the Deacon says specifically �stand up for prayer� which implies that people were kneeling until that part of the Liturgy.

The only people who are not supposed to kneel are people who have taken the communion; they do not kneel nor do they sing or talk much for the remainder of the day.

Every instrument that we use in our Church (the drum, the harp, etc.) is mentioned in the final chapters of Psalms and takes its inspiration from there.

We are just not allowed to play the drum during the Lenten fast (now actually) because is metaphorically a time of mourning because of the Death of Jesus, and in Africa drums are not supposed to be played after someone dies for a series of weeks. After Easter (the Resurrection) the use of drums resumes.

I can not say that there is any definite relationship between kneeling and musical instruments; actually there are various ceremonies that we could be doing any number of things while the �music� is playing.

I also don't see anything wrong with kneeling, it is a sign of respect and devotion, even if it was borrowed from the Latin Church it's good that something good was adopted from them, and not negative things. I have seen the Greek liturgy people kneel in certain parts of the Anaphora and the elevation just as "old fashioned" catholics did (now I have seen many places where Catholics no longer kneel in the mass).

Guitar, piano, organ, handbells, zither, or pots and pans....I would welcome anything that would help the congregation find the right pitch.

How ironic to speak of of "corruption"... our "uncorrupted singing" just about wilts the flowers sometimes!

Thanks for everyone's input, especially the Oriental Orthodox. Allow me to reply to a few of you individually:

Mor Ephrem: Do you kneel in your Liturgy on Sundays?

Aklie: What's wrong with kneeling? I have read that one of the early ecumenical councils forbade it.

To all:
Originally, our Soorp Badarak (Holy Sacrifice) was without music. So all our ancient hymns were designed to be sung or chanted acappella. Only in the last century or so has organs and the like become commonplace. It is a real treat for me when our organist has a few times missed the Badarak, because I love to sing the ancient hymns how they were originally designed to be sung.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. DerGhazarian

Nicea forbade kneeling on Sundays and during the time between the Resurection and Pentecost. Our older Liturgy books have a * after notes to kneel, and the note at the bottom says "on days when it is legal to do so". We don't kneel on Sundays or major feasts in rememberence of the Resurection. We do kneel at all other times.

Here's an answer from one of our bishops about instruments:

Q: Recently I've encountered several people who have expressed how much they hope that the Church will allow the use of Western instruments, such as pianos or acoustic guitars, to be used in worship in the churches in America and Australia. I personally hope that this never happens, but I was wondering is it a possibility, or is the use of only cymbals and triangles set in stone? Some people have expressed hope that an American rite or Church will be formed with more Western worship, is that a possibility? If that were to happen would people still have the option of going to the Coptic Churches they're used to, or would it replace them in America?



A: I wonder if those people who want to westernize the worship and the Coptic music have a good reason for that or is it just a matter of taste? The use of only cymbals and triangles is not a matter of being set in stone or not, it is a matter of tradition and heritage. The cymbals have been used in worship since the time of David the king. The limited use of instrument enhances the spiritual experience, while excessive use detracts from it, especially when it discourages or distracts the participation of the congregation. Another important point is experiencing the concept of unity in our churches outside our motherland Egypt and inside it. Nothing would warm the heart of a "displaced parishioner" more than to hear the familiar melodies outside of their home jurisdiction. This is a wonderful thing in our worship in the Coptic Orthodox Church no matter which continent, which country, which city or which church you attend you hear the same liturgical hymns with the same instruments.



The piano, guitar and many other instruments are used in our Coptic Orthodox praises and Christian songs outside the services. All the new CDs and tapes of hymns and praises have traditional hymns with new musical arrangements and various musical instruments. Let us distinguish between our worship during the liturgies and the praises we offer our Lord outside of the church services and enjoy having both, and here, I�d like to give you an account on the use of music in worship from the history and the witnesses of different denominations:



A. THE VOICE OF HISTORY...

1. "All our sources deal amply with vocal music of the church,

but they are chary with mention of any other manifestations of

musical art... The development of Western music was decisively

influenced by the exclusion of musical instruments from the

early Christian Church." - Paul Henry Lang, MUSIC IN WESTERN

CIVILIZATION, pp. 53, 54

2. "Only singing, however, and no playing of instruments, was

permitted in the early Christian Church." - Hugo

Leichtentritt, MUSIC, HISTORY AND IDEAS, p. 34

3. "There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine

service was everywhere entirely of a vocal nature." - Emil

Nauman, THE HISTORY OF MUSIC, Vol. 1, p. 177

4. "We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music

which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first

Christian congregations. It was, however, purely vocal." - Dr.

Frederick Louis Ritter, HISTORY OF MUSIC FROM THE CHRISTIAN

ERA TO THE PRESENT TIME, p. 28

5. "Both the Jews in their temple service, and the Greeks in

their idol worship, were accustomed to sing with the

accompaniment of instrumental music. The converts to

Christianity accordingly must have been familiar with this

mode of singing...But it is generally admitted, that the

primitive Christians employed no instrumental music in their

worship." -- Lyman Coleman (Presbyterian), THE APOSTOLIC AND

PRIMITIVE CHURCH, pp. 368-369



[It may seem odd that music was entirely vocal in the early church,

when instrumental music was quite common in the worship of the Jews

and Gentiles. But not when you recall that the worship in the NT

was to be spiritual in its emphasis.]



B. THE VOICE OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS SOURCES...

1. CATHOLIC - "... the first Christians were of too spiritual a

fiber to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to

accompany the human voice." -- CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

2. GREEK ORTHODOX - "The execution of Byzantine church music by

instruments, or even the accompaniment of sacred chanting by

instruments was ruled out by the Eastern Fathers as being

incompatible with the pure, solemn, spiritual character of the

religion of Christ." -- Constantine Cavarnos, BYSANTINE SACRED

MUSIC

3. PRESBYTERIAN - "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises

of God would be no more suitable than the restoration of the other shadows

of the law. The Papists, therefore, have foolishly borrowed

this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who

are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the

simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far

more pleasing to Him." - JOHN CALVIN, Commentary on the Book

of Psalms, Vol. I, p. 539

4. METHODIST - "I have no objection to instruments of music, in

our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." - JOHN

WESLEY (founder)

5. METHODIST - "Music as a science, I esteem and admire: but

instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and

abhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my

protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the

Author of Christianity." - ADAM CLARKE (commentator)

6. LUTHERAN - "Martin Luther called the organ an 'ensign of

Baal'." - MCCLINTOCK & STRONG'S ENCYCLOPEDIA

7. BAPTIST - "I would as soon attempt to pray to God with

machinery as to sing to Him with machinery." - CHARLES H.

SPURGEON



[Why did these men object so strongly to instrumental music in the

worship of the church? Because they properly realized:



That as such it was out of harmony with the SPIRITUAL nature of

NT worship



Finally, let's consider:



JUSTIFICATION OFFERED FOR THE USE OF INSTRUMENTS



A. "IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A TRADITION IN OUR CHURCH"

1. Not really, as history reveals the use of instruments to be an

innovation introduced hundreds of years after the NT Church

began

2. In most cases, it has been used only during the last two

centuries

3. Even so, as "traditions of men" it qualifies as VAIN worship

- Mt 15:9



B. "I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT"

1. Then your worship is IGNORANT worship - Ac 17:22-23

2. For you are not aware of the kind of worship God commands of

you



C. "I LIKE IT IN MY WORSHIP TO GOD"

1. Then it becomes WILL worship - Co 2:20-23

2. And you begin worshipping like Nadab & Abihu

a. Offering that which YOU like

b. But offering that which is profane, for God did not command

it.



God bless you

BY

Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

Dear-to-Christ Remie,

Do you have first-hand experience of this? Well, I do and I would like to share some of it.

It is not "Byzantine liturgies with guitars in Kosice." I don't know why you single out Ko�ice nor am I able to determine if you mean the city or the exarchate nor does it matter. The situation is the same in Pre�ov.

Before and after the Divine Liturgy there is singing, sometimes with musical accompaniment (usually the guitar). It seems that during communion the same is allowed. Since the prescribed communion verses have usually been sung only once and then followed by other devotional hymns which cannot be considered "liturgical" I don't see the big deal. If the appointed communion verses were being sung (with their refrains) then this would probably not happen. Since it appears that this custom of singing hymns is allowed it is not a big step to add musical accompaniment.

The GC Church in Slovakia is alive and there are many more young faces at Liturgy on any given day than here. The notion of "praise and worship" music has caught on and is used in youth events (not to accompany Liturgy), I don't think that can be criticized.

Here in the USA it seems that most GO and many AO parishes use the organ to accompany the Divine Liturgy. I was in at least one GC parish in Europe that used an organ to accompany Divine Liturgy.

The history of the organ's use in churches East and West must be documented somewhere. While I am not in favor of musical accompaniment of the Divine Liturgy I also don't think it is something to be laughed at.

I wish you a blessed Fast.

Tony

Hi Tony
I wish you a blessed fast too.

No I have never been in Slovakia, I just remember that someone posted here that during the Liturgy in the Byzantine Cathedral of Kosice, the Bishop allowed instruments (acoustic guitars) to be strumed in the liturgy inside the church and that the liturgy was shouted or recited most of the time.

I don't mean that musical instruments are evil or anything like that, now I understand that the guitars were used for "non-liturgical" hymns, before and afterthe liturgy. Maybe I will sound exagerated, I know I am exagerating but the problem is that if this becomes a common fashion, specially among young people, there will be a moment in which there will be a confusion between the liturgical and the non-liturgical things.

This is what I have discovered in my conversations with my Roman friend about the guitar-piano issue. She confuses the nature of the songs of praise that are sung outside her church for evangelization (pop music with christian lyrics, etc) and the hymns that are to be sung in her Mass as part of the liturgy. When this distintion is blured, there's a problem.

About the Orthodox parishes with organs, I was told that in this case it's because the organ works when there's no choir (and the "bourdon" the plain note) is easily played in the organ. I was also told that in Boston, there's an Albanian parish with an organ. I know a member of the Albanian Church in Boston, I'll ask her if this is true (she must know because she tells me that she attends "Mass" every sunday because she fulfills her "sunday obligation"). :p

Do the hymns at the back of the BC liturgy book have some kind of "nihil obstat" designation?
Do they count as liturgical music that could not be sung with instrumentation? Are we allowed to sing things that are not in the book, if there is solid doctrine and no musical accompaniment?

If the music of the liturgy needs to be a capella, does that only mean what is sung between the opening "Blessed is the kingdom..." and the closing of the sanctuary doors? Or can other music also fall into the "liturgical music" category? E.g., is "Immaculate Mary" liturgical music if the doors are opened, and non-liturgical music when the doors are shut?