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Stojgniev,

As an example of censorship you quoted: �Charles Bransom wrote: As to your second sentence: (1) the name is spelled Mahony and (2) please don`t go down that road. That sentence is bordering on disrespect. Please remember that this is not an RC forum.�

Can you explain to me why you believe this is attempted censorship? It seems to me that Mr. Bransom was intending to be charitable in telling LatinByzEastNovice 1) the correct way to spell the cardinal�s last name and 2) that his description of the cathedral is �bordering on disrespect�. As administrator, I would not have commented on either point made by LatinByzEastNovice but it seems to me that the Los Angeles Cathedral has been a topic of much heated discussions on Roman Catholic forums and that Mr. Bransom was attempting to prevent such a heated discussion from erupting here. I just don�t see anything offensive in his post.

You mentioned that Mr. Bransom has attempted censorship on several occasions. That is a serious charge. Can you please PM me links to these occasions along with reasons why you believe his posts in those threads are attempted censorship? If you have none then I ask you to post an apology to Mr. Bransom and withdraw your charge.

Admin

In the future please word your posts so that the readers understand that you are giving your opinion, and that you speak for no one but yourself.

I am always speaking only for myself. It would seem to me that beginning a post with the words, " "I think" " would make that clear. Appreciation of architecture, or lack of it, is a subjective judgment.

Place looks like a sixth graders cardboard "box house" from the outside.

I personally don't care what the Latins build with their own money, since they aren't spending any of mine. There are some really good Catholic charities out there doing some fine work that can always use money - Aid to the Church in Need immediately comes to mind. If I lived in that archdiocese, I would send my donations to a good charity like ACN. Fortunately, that isn't a problem in my area. I don't like the building, but you notice I do think the organ is a fine instrument. Of course, I am an organist, so I would naturally notice that. I did not know that there has been a lot of argument on Latin forums about that cathedral, but then I don't read Latin forums. I waste far too much time on this one without looking at others. My opinion is that we live in an age that has lost its soul. Consequently the buildings, art, and music reflect that. We have secular art for a secularized society.

Hmmm... Has anyone here seen the UGCC out by O'Hare?

Dear Administrator,

In the past I have indeed been shocked by Mr Bransom's efforts in this forum to censor criticism of American Catholicism.

On the internet following this past Palm Sunday (at least I think it was then - please excuse my memory, clouded by tragic family events) I posted an article about the Holy Eucharist, comparing the reverence I experienced in an American Maronite parish recently and the experience in the rural town in the American Bible Belt where both my parents were born and raised. The main point of the article was this: the difference between "American Catholicism" and Apostolic Christianity is nowhere more evident than in respect for the Eucharist during liturgy.

American Catholics commune with their immediate community, the people sitting next to them in their pew. In Apostolic Christianity, one communes with God, His Son, and the saints of the ages. No one who visited a Roman Catholic liturgy in Central or Eastern Europe will dispute that fact.

My article was posted here (I can't remember exactly where, but surely it is in your archives) and in several other forums. Mr. Bransom succeeded in having the thread closed, since, as he said, it was something inappropriate for a forum on Eastern Christianity (even though a major point of my article concerned the Eucharist in an American Maronite parish).

I suspect that Mr. Bransom is an influential figure (how else could he shut down an open discussion on the comparative respect towards the Eucharist in American Catholic & Maronite parishes)? Since his interest, clearly, is in defending the status quo in American Catholicism (a group distinguished in our times by clerical pedophilia and by monstrous architectural egoisms like Cardinal Mahony's project), why should Mr Bransom be allowed to dictate to people in this forum what they can and cannot post?

My own experiences are much closer to Soviet totalitarianism, and I find Mr Bransom's calls for censorship abhorent.

I suggest that Byzantine Forum is not an appropriate forum for maintstream American Catholics out defending their own way of doing things, as represented by Cardinals Mahony, Bernardin, etc.

Stojgniev

ByzanTn wrote: It is so barren, sterile and ugly, it would delight the soul of an authentic Calvinist - although I don't think the original Calvinists were ever delighted by anything.

Born in the Bible Belt, I have no empathy for Calvinism, America's ugliest heresy (both physically and spiritually), more blatant than Puritanism. I have not visited Cardinal Mahony's project & have no desire to go there.

I recall an experience from graduate school about 1990 - our group of students visited a recently renovated cathedral in Czechoslovakia. My mate on the tourbus was a Danish musician studying flute in Moravia. She exited the cathedral and exclaimed: "How horrible! In my country, though I don't attend church, the church walls are whitewashed! Here they are covered with paintings" She was revulsed by the decoration within the church, something which had been renovated (in magnificence) only after the fall of communism.

And how can Americans tolerate those new "sanctuaries" which are more warehouse and auditorium than place for proper worship?

Stojgniev

Ah, Rilian, my brother , yes. The architectural fine points of (is it Saint Joseph's?) have been a topic of conversation and consternation here on more than one occasion.

Many years,

Neil

Yes, St. Joseph's is the one. I seem to remember on the inside it wasn't that bad, the outside though... Yikes.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I remember overhearing a conversation between a faculty member of the Baptist seminary I attended and a third party. they were discussing churches in Europe, when the faculty member compared the auditorium of Highland Park Baptist to an airplane hanger. however, in a all fairness to the rest of Protestantism,one should visit the Sanctuary of First Presbyterian in Chattanooga: they have two beautiful stained glass windows on either side of the Sanctuary; the eastern window has the Resurrection, while the western has the Nativity. First Pres is of the Calvinist tradition and is situated in the Bible belt. so, when discussing Protestant churches and their lack of artwork, let's not hit everyone with the same brush .
Much Love,
Jonn

Jonn, there are also some magnificent Presbyterian churches in Knoxville, one dating to 1792 and established by the founder of Knoxville. I think even the most ardent admirers of Presbyterianism would find little similarity between that religion of today, and the Presbyterianism practiced in Calvin's own time. I think Calvin would be quite unhappy with the Presbyterians of today and might not recognize them as his followers. These beautiful buildings would probably not be austere enough for him.

Stojgniev,

In two posts on this thread, you have leveled serious and outrageous charges at me. You have absolutely no basis for your charges and instead of replying to the Administrator by PM, as he requested, to answer his questions concerning your first post, you chose to reply to him publicly and leveled additional charges at me.

In your most recent post, you state: "Mr. Bransom succeeded in having the thread closed, since, as he said, it was something inappropriate for a forum on Eastern Christianity (even though a major point of my article concerned the Eucharist in an American Maronite parish). "

To refresh your memory concerning the thread which you started in late March of this year, and which you began by posting an article written by Kevin Hannan, you only mentioned visiting a Maronite church once - not at the beginning of that thread, but in one of your last posts. It was not the major point of your article. In the article which began the thread, the writer spoke of attending "... an Eastern Rite liturgy ...." and then went on to contrast the Roman praxis in Poland with that in the United States.

You will recall that I asked you, in one of my posts in that thread, if you were Kevin Hannan. Instead of replying in that thread, you sent me a PM admitting that you are Kevin Hannan. You never mentioned that to the other posters.

In your latest post, you wrote: "I suspect that Mr. Bransom is an influential figure (how else could he shut down an open discussion on the comparative respect towards the Eucharist in American Catholic & Maronite parishes)? "

As noted above, this was not a discussion on the "comparative respect towards the Eucharist in American Catholic & Maronite parishes."

I find your suspicison that I must be an "influential figure" to be hilarious. I have no more influence on this Forum than I do at the White House.

You then wrote: "My own experiences are much closer to Soviet totalitarianism, and I find Mr Bransom's calls for censorship abhorent."

Mr. Hannan, please show where I have called for censorship, on this Forum or anywhere else. You will not find any. Your attacks on me are abhorrent, Mr. Hannan.

I shall pray for you.

One of the moderators pointed out that I reacted harshly, probably because of the issues between Stojgniev and Mr. Bransom. My apologies to byzanTN.

Stojgniev,

You might consider that there is a difference between offering thoughtful criticism of the Church while offering solutions and simply attacking the Church.

From my read of your posts you seem content to simply complain and then shout down all who disagree with you. If you mean differently, you might consider that this is how your posts come across.

Mr. Branson � who I have never met and who has no special influence on the Forum � seems to share many of your opinions but simply does not want to get stuck arguing with you about them.

Regarding the specific complaints you are making about reverence for the Eucharist, I can only use my own judgment here. I have visited many Roman Catholic parishes � from the one in the neighborhood where I live (which is fantastic) to parishes in Europe, Asia and the Middle East. As one might expect, I found parishes that were wonderful and parishes that were less then wonderful. If you feel that your local parish has a lack of respect for the Eucharistic Presence then I highly suggest that you set an example to your parish by spending time on your knees in Eucharist Adoration. If your Roman Catholic parish does not have Eucharistic Adoration then get a few of your fellow parishioners together and ask your priest. If that doesn�t work then visit the next parish for that devotion.

Since you have not bothered to post any links to support your accusation against Mr. Bransom�s then I will assume that your accusations were false. [Telling me to do a search to prove that you are correct just doesn�t work and is very disrespectful on your part. Accusing me of not being able to think for myself is even more disrespectful.]

Please do not post again on this Forum unless you 1) PM me with specific links to support your accusations and then wait for my reply or 2) apologize to Mr. Bransom. If you cannot abide by this then I highly suggest that you find another forum to participate in.

Cries of censorship fall on deaf ears. You have a right to say anything you wish without being censored. I have no obligation to provide you with a soapbox to say it from.

Admin