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Ality said "help our churches to unite into one single Byzantine Church of America"

Yikes! Not for a long time, the nationalists like myself need to die out :p But really we can't just leave our roots, our Martyr-church to create a pan-American Eastern Cath. Church. What about the immigrants? What about people like myself who prefer Liturgy in Ukrainian? Or for others Greek, Slavonic, etc.? Anyways sorry for going off topic.
-ukrainian catholic

I am always puzzled how Americans, born and bred in the USA, consider themselves Ukraniain nationalists!?

Our roots are Byzantine Christianity, not varenyki and hopaks (Although I am as much a fan of both as any Ukrainian Catholic)

Does secular culture sanctify the Church, or does the Church sanctify the secular culture? The church sanctifies the culture and we have a mission as the Universal Church to sancitfy the American culture. Here in the US, we live in an American culture, not Ukrainian.

One cannot ignore the the "macro demographic" tragedy of our Churches. In the 1970's the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the US numbered 320,000. Today, thirty years later, we nubmer 120,000. We are a dying church. And confusing temporary parish growth due to a local influx of immigration with a vital natinal church overall, is a gross denial of reality. Already, immigrants in Sacramento are bemoaning that their children are more "American" than "Ukrainian". What do you expect? WE live in AMERICA!!!! Duh!

If our Churches continue to fail to adapt and reflect the culture they live, we will only continue to alienate and lose our faithful, with the exception of academic eccentrics like myself and ukrainiancatholic.

An adaptation, such a united Byzantine Catholic Chruch of America (not and Eastern Catholic Church) does not exlude Ukrainian, Old Slovanic, etc. Divine Liturgies from continuing to serve those who prefer such services. And, furthermore, a more "corporate" Byzantine Catholic Church does not necessitate one giving up their particular ethno-cultural roots.

I myself am an Orthodox-Catholic of the Byzantine tradition first, an American second, and an American Ukrainian third. My love for my ancestral cultural heritage does not obscure the fact that I have a duty to share that faith with others in my community, who are predominately not Ukrainian. Let the Ukrainian nation preserve her ethnic culture and I will work to preserve my religious culture. I do not pretend to be a Ukrainain, because I never will be and I am not one. I am an American and will never be anything else. Besides which, even if I were confused about who I am and considered myself a Ukrainain "nationalist", I would still wish to pray in the language which will allow me to unerstand my faith and edify it, for that is the reason I go to church. (And to acquire the Holy Spirit). Being that I am not fluent in Ukrainian, such services will always be a rite of culutral initiantion and not of Christian faith and growth.

But then again, ukiecath, probably just dangled this carrot infront of me to provoke me and I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Back to the topic, such a divergance of topic as this, which is so typical in public forums on the Byzantine Forum would be reduced, but not eliminated, by making the seminarian/vocation forum closed to all except those it specifically pertains to.

Christ is Risen!
ALity

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Ality ]

Greetings Friends,

Can we agree that this will be a closed forum? If so, I think we have the number of people that the Administrator requiers to get this thing off the ground.

Peter

Peter,

Please compile a list of potential participants along with the eparchy they are studying for and forward it to me via e-mail. I will again consult with a few priest friends as to whether such a forum is warranted. If it is created it will be limited to those who are official seminarians for a particular Byzantine eparchy.

Administrator

So this means that those of us actively discerning a vocation will not be allowed into this forum until we start the seminary.....

What about those of us discerning a monastic vocation?

I guess we are all alone in our journey.

Sometimes it is very discouraging.


david

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

David,

To open up such a forum to anyone discerning a vocation is really to make it an open forum. It makes no sense to create a private forum and then open it up to everyone that wishes to join. Such discussions can already be conducted now in the open forums.

To suggest that one is alone in the journey is a cop out. If you have good spiritual director and one or two friends you can discuss a possible vocation with, you are already at a level far beyond anything any internet forum can provide.

Admin

Dear Admin,

What about someone like me who will be studying at St. Vladimir's Seminary but not officially be a seminarian of an Eastern Catholic eparchy?

anastasios

I understand what you are saying about it really just being an open forum, I can see that.

But....

I do not appericate the implied insult, it is not a cop out, period.

I do have a good spiritual director, who happens to be over an hour away. I do not have the "one or two friends you can discuss a possible vocation with".

Mainly because those friends I do have, have no idea what the monastic life is all about, nor do they have any understanding of what a religious vocation is. All my contacts with people about my vocation are though the 'net and email.

Sorry to say but it is not a cop out. I am alone in this journey as no one around me knows much about it nor can they share in it.

As I said, you have insulted and hurt me very deeply with your comments. I do hope there is an apology in near future.

david

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

One possible solution to DavidB problem is to simply create another public forum that is called a Vocations Forum: a public forum for all those discerning a religious life, monastic or priest.
Would that be so hard to do?

I can only agree with the Admin. that the forum should be closed to only those who have formally made the committment, and not those discerning. The public forum is more than sufficient for one to discuss their discernment and if a "special" Vocations Forum were to be created to support and nurture those who feel they have a vocation, I think that would be most helpful.


Did you purposely mean just Byzantine, or are all Easetern Catholic/Orthodox allowed?

Would you consider it wrong to not allow Roman Catholic seminarians? What do others think?
Sometimes I find it very hard to talk to Roman Catholics about the faith . . .

ALity

DavidB,

Having partialy been reading this book authored by a now deceased Hindue Yogie. I can empathize with you. According to him, it is possible to achieve your ambitions and goals, soley on your own moral drive void of any other moral support around you. But he suggest this is highly unlikely, so unlikely that few will succeed. He suggests that a person who wants to be a great mathamatician should [and needs] to get around other and better mathamaticians. Same thing with the person who desires the spiritual pursuit.

***

Understanding things in this light, I can understand how vocations in todays North America can be so low. Our society, our culture, drives all pursuit of virtue out of our young at a very early age. Pressuring in them instead the desire of what the *Fathers of Christianity* would call vice. I myself am a product of this [hardcore] drive for self indulgent vice. Pursuit of this pleasure is encouraged around me - as with everyone else in our modern society - at every turn and bend. The encouragement for Godly virtue is small to nill - or so it can seem.


Peace - And Godspeed.

Justin

David,

I am sorry if you have perceived an insult where none was intended. Point is, I know at least two friends that you have to help you and both are available via private e-mail and one of these is already a monk. I could easily put you into e-mail contact with two other monks. This would far better than any internet forum.

I suggest that your conclusion that you are alone simply because a possible new forum might be limited to official seminarians is the issue here. Fact is, you are not alone. As it stands there is no reason to create a private forum for those discerning vocations as there is simply no way to manage it.

--

Anastasios,

According to the forum rules suggested by Peter you would not qualify for admittance because you are not an official seminarian.


--

Ality,

Such discussions could be held right now in the Faith & Worship Forum. The only reason to create another public forum for discernment of possible vocations would be if the number of posts on this topic dominated that forum.

Regarding the forum for seminarians, “Byzantine” means all Byzantine Catholics – Ruthenian, Melkite, Ukrainian, Romanian and etc. It could be opened up to include our Orthodox brothers studying for the priesthood. I am not sure it would be wise to open it to Roman Catholic seminarians. They already have a few places on the web and their seminary experiences is quite different that that of a Byzantine Christian.

Admin

>>>According to the forum rules suggested by Peter you would not qualify for admittance because you are not an official seminarian.

Well then I suggest you drop the idea of a private forum. If it is closed to people who are even IN the seminary (but who are not "official" diocesan seminarians) then I fail to see how it is fair to someone like me who might benefit from being able to share my equally valid and private concerns about seminary life with others going through the same thing, just because I'm not "official." This private forum idea is starting to sound like a "private club".

anastasios

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: anastasios ]

Anastasios,

I think it's fantastic that you are going to take an advanced degree from St. Vlad's and I pray that all goes well. With all due respect, however, you are not going to seminary and I doubt St. Vladimir's would consider you to be a seminarian without a sponsoring bishop. No one should call himself a seminarian unless he has petitioned their bishop and been accepted as such.

Would such a forum equate a “private club”? Absolutely! By definition it would be limited to those who have taken the plunge and are actually studying for ordination. It would not be fair to those who have made a commitment to their bishop to give someone else without such a commitment equal standing.

I do understand that it is desirable to have a private forum for those discerning a vocation (apart from or even in addition to one for actual seminarians). The problem is that such a forum is not manageable since by definition such a forum would be open to anyone claiming to be discerning a vocation (which would simply be in essence a public forum).

Admin

Admin,
There is a way to work around this problem.

You say that the seminarian forum (for lack of better name) would only be open to those seminarians that have made a commitment to their bishop.

You asked Peter for a list of potential participants along with the eparchy they are studying for and forward it to me via e-mail.

How would you verify this? Anyone can claim this just as they could claim to be discerning a vocation.

Now for my suggestion, if you did wish to start a forum for those discerning a vocation. Couldn't you ask each prospective person to supply you with the name of the spiritual director they are working with in this discernment process? As I think their spiritual director should know and would like to know that their directee is involved in a forum such as this. They may even wish to drop by.

So you could contact this spiritual director as you could contact the bishop of those seminarians.

Just a thought.


David

ps I would like to apologize to the Admin as well, I think I was just itching for a fight today. :p

Also, read your private messages Admin!

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear Admin:

Well, I am going to study at a Seminary, so I am "going to Seminary."

I am participating in the Master's of Divinity Degree program (NOT the 2 year program) which entails ministry work projects and preaching in the chapel.

I was informed that I must purchase a cassock for wearing in the chapel (I specifically asked this since I am Eastern Catholic.)

So that's what I am basing my definition on. I am stuck in the middle, really; I am not on ordination-track right now, but I am not just "pursuing an advanced degree in theology". If I were, I would just take the 2 year Master of Theology Degree!!

I think that a private forum should be open to all who are studying at a seminary, whether on ordination track or for other purposes, such as lay Church ministry. I think that's one of the big problems with the Byzantine Catholic Church right now: still all caught up on the "Seminary is for priest training only" idea.

In Christ,

anastasios