www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Photo Gallery Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God

This is the chart we use at the food festival at St. George to help people visually it's development and the Churches.

Nice. However, the Edessene Church is not extinct, it is known as the Church of the East. I also think the links between the Cappodocian liturgy and the Celtic and Gallic rites is highly speculative. There was eastern influence, for sure, but to point to Cappodocia specifically seems peculiar. There was, in fact, a liturgy of Antioch which was separate and distinct from the Cappodocian (both contributed to the Constantinopolitan rite), and given trading patterns of the second and third centuries, it seems more likely that Greeks and Syrians came directly from Antioch to Lyons, and thence to Britain, than from remote Cappodocia. Egypt would also have direct contact with Lyons, providing another route for Eastern liturgical influences.

The Glagolitic rite, for what it's worth, should also show a lateral connection to Constantinople and the Slav-Byzantine rite.

Eddessa is not identified as a Church, but as a city - and in that construct it is indeed extinct. And the liturgy of the Assyrians is represented on the chart by the Chaldean entry.

The Glagolitic is not a Rite. It's purely the alphabet that allowed for the Latin Rite Mass to be served in a language other than Latin during the tenure of the Indult.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, thanks for the additions to the chart. All the work you went to, to get it to upload also.

I think it can be a great tool for trying to explain to folks how things developed. Sometimes our brain and heart see better when they have something to hold and look at other than trying to just read.

Neil it does enlarge. It just took a few taps to get it to, but it did. I will get it again for you.

I would add that Sarum is not totally extinct, but still celebrated occassionally. I'm not sure about Glagolitic (Roman-Slavic, or whatever its proper name is). I heard that this rite is still being used somewhere in Croatia. Also there's Western Rite of Esztergom which is not included on this diagram.

Peter,

I'd agree with you regarding Sarum, although the common answer one would hear for many years would have suggested that it was extinct.

As regards the Glagolitic, the Western Mass is indeed still served according to the Indult in a few places in Croatia and, on occasion, in some personal parishes of the Latin Croats in the US (principally, those served by the Franciscan Croat Custody). If one intends to refer to those instances, a better way to style them would be as a Usage or by referencing the Indult - as I explained above, it's not a Rite.

Rose,

You're correct, it does indeed enlarge. Thanks for sharing it.

Overall, it certainly could ably serve the purpose for which St George's uses it. Most who would use it as a learning tool would not know enough to recognize its omissions.

The Slovaks, Hungarians, and Byelorussians are missing from the Byzantine. Some would suggest that the first two are derivitive of the Ruthenian and the latter of the Ukrainians, but the fact remains that they are Churches sui iuris and should be named.

The Serbs are referenced, but that entry would be more accurately labeled as 'Croat', given that Serb Greek-Catholics are few and far between, much outnumbered by their Croat neighbors.

Overall, the chart nicely shows the place of origin - from whence are titled the Rites (the Eastern ones at least). A problem is that while the opening tier of entries are Rites, those subsequent (at least as regards the East & Orient) are Churches that use that Rite. But, that isn't entirely clear - and is less so because the Syriacs aren't there. Yes, West Syriac shows as a second tier entry (point of origen), but there is not a separate, repetitive entry below that to define Syriac as as a Church.

Many years,

Neil

A chart like this is a difficult way to picture shadings and relationships that need a paragraph to describe, but as one who knows very little of this area, I found it helpful and well worth my study. I also appreciated the additional explanations which further clarified the historical landscape.

Thanks Via. Here in Alabama, we are in the 'Bible Belt'. The biggest reason for the chart is to awaken people to 'there is more'. It is so sad, most have no idea. I can't tell you how many Protestants I have run into down here, who say they don't even study the Old Testament. They feel Jesus did it all, so they don't need to know anything else. It is amazing, when we see their eyes open and the realization that Jesus gave us such an awesome heritage.

What is the difference between the Old Roman and the Roman?
Thank you.

I was trying to find this chart for someone. Can someone answer the question. I know, but not versed in stuff like you guys are,