The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Anatoly99, PoboznyNeil, Hammerz75, SSLOBOD, Jayce
6,186 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (theophan), 908 guests, and 93 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,534
Posts417,717
Members6,186
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Gallery
Next Gallery
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
icon of Christ as infant on altar.jpg
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Icon of the infant Christ on the Altar

Does anyone know the name of the icon or the history of it, or anything else about it biggrin ? THANKS!
23 Comments
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
The only thing I know about this icon is that it's one of the most grotesque illustrations I have ever seen; and therefore I want a mounted copy of it as soon as possible.


I suspect it's trying to depict the identification of the Christ Child's self-sacrifice in His Incarnation with the Divine Liturgy, by which that salvific sacrifice is rendered mystically present in the here-and-now.

Looks like one of the seraphim attentively keeping watch in adoration. As we have heard and many of us regularly sing, it is we who mystically - despite all our faults and spiritual neediness - represent them @ every DL.

I do not believe calling something grotesque is necessarily a bad thing...Flannery O'Connor said the grotesque was the good under construction. Seems I have been attracted to the grotesque ever since childhood.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
A beautiful icon indeed! I have seen a similar image in the sanctuary of a Greek Orthodox chapel.
The portrayal of Christ as a child lying on the diskos is based on the prayers said by the priest during the proskemedia.

Quote
On the Diskos is placed the (incensed) Star cover. Then the Diskos and Chalice are covered with the (incensed) veils and both with the (incensed) Aer. The star cover references the Star of Bethlehem, which announced to the world the birth of the Savior of the World. The beautiful Prothesis prayer said as the priest places it on the Diskos: "And the star came and stood over the place where the young child was." Recall that usually at the Prothesis Table is an icon of the Holy Nativity (as seen above). The small veil over the Diskos denotes the power, might and majesty of God: ". . . He hath clothed Himself with majesty . . ." The second veil denotes Christ's virtue which covers the world. The Aer is the large veil that covers both the veiled diskos and chalice. It symbolizes both the swaddling clothes of the Christ Child in the manger ("And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger." Lk 2:12) and the burial cloth in which Christ was wrapped and placed in the tomb after His Crucifixion and death ("They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews . . ." Jn 19:40). The words said by the priest while placing the Aer over the gifts can also be meditated on: "Shelter us in the shadow of they wings . . . ." Christ covers the whole world with His salvific grace.

http://www.antiochian.org/author/morelli/ethos_orthodox_catechesis_3

Also...
Quote
The sacred instruments used and actions performed in the Proskomedia have a symbolic meaning. The Diskos signifies the cave in Bethlehem and Golgotha; the Star, the star of Bethlehem and the Cross; the Covers and Veils, the swaddling clothes and the winding sheet at the tomb of the Saviour; the Chalice, that cup in which Jesus Christ sanctified the wine; the prepared Lamb, the judgment, passion and death of Jesus Christ; its piercing by the spear, the piercing of Christ’s body by one of the soldiers.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/LGFLS/services.shtml

In fact, some diskos have the image of the Christ Child engraved on where the Lamb is placed.

I hope this helps.


Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
Pani,

I am curious, where did you find the icon?

There are icons of St. John the Baptist that depict him holding a diskos or chalice with the Christ Child lying upon it:
http://deaconjohnspace.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/behold-the-lamb-of-god/

Western iconography depicts the Christ the Lamb of God as literally a lamb. Byzantine iconography depicts the Lamb of God as a child.

Here is an aer with the Christ Child lying on a diskos flanked by two angels: http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalo...er&lot_id=159537603&SIZE=smaller

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
I really can't find myself liking this icon or drawn to venerate it, but I'm also curious as to its origin.

Many years,

Neil

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 1
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 1
This type of icon is known as the Melismos.

Dn. David

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 672
Likes: 2
Member
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 672
Likes: 2
Neil,
While this type of icon is quite traditional, this particular icon is not meant to be venerated, but is simply didactic. There is no feastday for this image, nor would you put it out on the tetrapod or analogion for veneration. So your instinct is correct. We simply need to observe and learn from it.


Ray

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 802
Likes: 2
Member
Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 802
Likes: 2
I like the photo. Is not the Christ represented as in a sepulchre in the Nativity icon? It occurs something similar in this.

I also remembered the gesture of laying the male baby in the altar in his entrance in the Temple, in the 40th day.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by Chtec
This type of icon is known as the Melismos.

Dn. David

What does that mean Fr. Deacon David?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by 70x7
Neil,
While this type of icon is quite traditional, this particular icon is not meant to be venerated, but is simply didactic. There is no feastday for this image, nor would you put it out on the tetrapod or analogion for veneration. So your instinct is correct. We simply need to observe and learn from it.


Ray

Ray can you explain a bit more. thanks!

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 672
Likes: 2
Member
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 672
Likes: 2
I was taught that every icon that is placed before us for veneration has a particular feast, a date etc. Even the icons that portray parables, have a prescribed date as per the lectionary when we hear that lesson read in church. Some examples may be the Last Judgment, Prodigal Son, etc. While this wonderful icon is Eucharistic in nature, when would you place it for veneration among the faithful? What would be the occasion? Within our tradition, does this icon have a Feast with Troparia and Propers? What is its rank?

That being said, this is a canonical icon that is quite worthy for our discussion and placement in our churches.

I like it alot.

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Pani,

I am curious, where did you find the icon?

There are icons of St. John the Baptist that depict him holding a diskos or chalice with the Christ Child lying upon it:
http://deaconjohnspace.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/behold-the-lamb-of-god/

Western iconography depicts the Christ the Lamb of God as literally a lamb. Byzantine iconography depicts the Lamb of God as a child.

Here is an aer with the Christ Child lying on a diskos flanked by two angels: http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalo...er&lot_id=159537603&SIZE=smaller

Griego I really don't know. I have tried to find it again, it was a while back, and I have always been curious about it. I think it might have been from one of those sites that sell icons from Russia and such in a collection. I don't know. I usually add the link when I save one like that, but didn't this time, makes me think I found it on some night I was just looking around the web.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,529
Likes: 27
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,529
Likes: 27
This Lutheran loves the Icon.

It portrays my favorite couplets from the Christmas carol "What Child is This?"

Nail, spear will pierce Him through
The cross be borne for me, for you,
Hail, hail, the Word made flesh,
The Babe, the Son of Mary


Liturgically, we sing that during the preparation of the Holy table on Christmas Eve. And I always use as the Eucharistic Prayer during the Twelve Days one that includes these lines:

As Mary and Joseph went
from Galilee to Bethlehem
and found there no room,
so Jesus went
from Galilee to Jerusalem
and was despised and rejected.
As in the poverty of a stable
Jesus was born,
so from suffering and death
you raised him to bring us life.

As your Word became flesh,
born of a woman,
on that night long ago,
so in the night
in which he was betrayed....

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by 70x7
I was taught that every icon that is placed before us for veneration has a particular feast, a date etc. Even the icons that portray parables, have a prescribed date as per the lectionary when we hear that lesson read in church. Some examples may be the Last Judgment, Prodigal Son, etc. While this wonderful icon is Eucharistic in nature, when would you place it for veneration among the faithful? What would be the occasion? Within our tradition, does this icon have a Feast with Troparia and Propers? What is its rank?

That being said, this is a canonical icon that is quite worthy for our discussion and placement in our churches.

I like it alot.

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

There is an icon like this in Saints Peter and Paul Orthodox Church (OCA) in Manville, New Jersey. The inscription on the icon is "The Self-Sacrificing One." It is placed directly behind the Holy Table in the apse of the church. This seems a most appropriate place for the icon, as it has to do with the Divine Liturgy itself, rather than a Feastday.

I found one photograph of the icon on the parish's Website. Unfortunately the photo is taken through the opened holy doors at Pascha and the fans and cross behind the Holy Table obscure the icon somewhat.

The Self-Sacrificing One [ssppoc.org]

Fr David Straut

P.S. Perhaps our Western brethren could adopt this icon for the Feast of Corpus Christi. wink

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 1
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 1
As I noted above, this is known as the Melismos and is, as Fr. David noted, usually shown behind the Holy Table in a church decoration scheme. It is not usually shown by itself, but rather forms the iconographic Holy Table that is flanked by angels and by the Fathers of the Church who are concelebrating around it.

Dn. David

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Administrator 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0