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I surely meant kissing [not kees] pope's feet...

Dear All,
1. The Pope is not now and never has been an "Emperor". He is, in fact and law, the "Sovereign of the Temporal Dominions of the Holy Roman Church" - in other words, he is the monarch of Vatican City State, one of the smallest independent states in the world (so small, in fact, that to the best of my knowledge none of the embassies of the 100+ nations accredited to the Vatican is located on the territory of the state). Vatican City State probably has little more than 1,000 citizens, if indeed there are that many; the overwhelming majority of Catholic are not citizens of that state.
b) the custom of kissing the Pope's shoes (not his feet, incidentally) has been out of use for the past four decades. However, one should remember the event in the late nineteen-seventies when the Pope suddenly fell to his knees and kissed the feet of the Orthodox representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch - and that is no rumor; there are numerous documents, eyewitness reports, and I believe even photographs to prove it. It made headlines around the world.

c) can we PLEASE return to a discussion of the Holy Light?

Incognitus

Though I have not been seen too much lately ( I have a huge workload at the moment) I am still monitoring the posts in the different forums and moderating as needed.

With that said, I must agree with Incognitus that this thread should and must be returned to the topic of the thread. If you want to start a thread regarding kissing feet and who does it, please start another thread regarding it.

This should be an edifying thread as much has been written about this great miracle, and it should not be bogged down by things irrelevant to it.

Let's get back on topic PLEASE!

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

Dear Icognitus you said:

1. The Pope is not now and never has been an "Emperor".

I say:

I know he is not, but the appearance to one outside of the Roman Church, and especially to those living in democratic institutions, is that of an emporor being lauded by the people.

I say this, because I myself at one time had a hard time accepting the reaction of the Catholics to the Pope. I realize now, that the respect is given by the Holy Spirit working through the hearts of the people.

I only wish that our own Orthodox people would have a similar respect towards their own leaders but I doubt that would ever happen...at least not to the same degree. I guess it must have something to do with the 'seat' of Peter.

I did hear, (and this should be interesting to Arbanon), that from the time that the Pope divested himself of any secular power, (mid eighteen-hundreds), that all the Pope's have been considered saints.

So with the loss of his secular power in the 19th century, came the dogma of infallibility in spiritual matters.

Zenovia

I think, this Topic has been consumated. I dont see there will be other answers than those brought allready.

thanks for your answers.


P.S - Zenovia, read Eamon Duffy (a catholic historian) "Saints and Sinners. A history of the Popes". Or if you would like, "The bad Popes", and then you will see the Myth-fugure created about and around the Pope.

Once again, we greeks prove that we have nothing to do with the genius people we used to be centuries ago... Have you heard of phosphorus? Look it up and you will find more about the "holy" fire than you think.
A: Repeative miracle? That's a first!
B: Pyrolatria...Fire worshipping. Does ti sound christianic to you?
C: Do you think that Irinaios ever was worthy enough of recieving the light?
D: Did I mention how stupid it is to worship fire?

Dear Armando,

I hope that you had a happy Greek Independence Day and Feast Day of the Annunciation. I hope that your spirits are better and that you are well. It is good to see you here.

I don't think that we Greeks actually worship fire or that anyone one hierarch is worthy of God's miracles, no matter who he is. We are all unworthy sinners and it is only be God's mercy that we receive any miracles in our individual or collective lives.

I think that miracles, when God deems to perform them, are signs for us from Heaven in order for us to believe or continue believing, knowing that God is still with us.

God, (sometimes through His holy Mother, and the saints) gives us different types of miracles throughout the diverse Christian world for the spiritual growth and edification of His people.

With love in Christ,
Alice

Anyone who chooses not to believe in the Holy Light may disbelieve without any danger of someone coming with phosphorus and napalm to compel him to pledge allegiance to it. For those of us (including myself) who are inclined to accept that this is indeed Agion Phos, it is not the foundation of our faith, but the fruit of our faith.

Cecil DeMille did a rather good job of replicating the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea. Does anyone seriously believe that he was there the first time around, with all the wonders of modern technology?

A priest of my acquaintance who has never been blessed to be in Jerusalem on Pascha nevertheless prays each year as he lights the triple-candlestick just before the procession: "Bless, O Lord, the Crown of the year of Thy Benevolence, that as we celebrate again the Resurrection of Thy Son, we may behold once more the Uncreated Light."

Incognitus

What I dislike is the attidute of: "We must remain Orthodox because of the holy light.".
If someone wishes to remain orthodox and apart from the Holy Roman Church because of the orthodox saints, tradition, doctrines of theosis and aktisto phos, then I agree... That person should never leave the Orthodox Church. But you should NEVER expect from God to order you what to believe. Simply because God has given us free will and He will never trespass that!! I've heard people say that they disagree on everything with orthodoxy but remain orthodox because of the holy fire. That is very wrong...

Of course the choice is personal. I am not worthy of condamning any miracle or person. God have mercy on me.

Armando.

The commandments of God - including the command to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - do not violate free will. God does not compel us to obey Him.

The Catholic Church does not deny the doctrine of theosis, nor the Uncreated Light, nor does she forbid us to venerate Orthodox Saints.

Incognitus

Thank You to everyone that has shed some light on this subject.

Dear Friends,

The Holy Light is a miracle which ALL may experience.

In fact, not only Eastern Orthodox, but also Oriental Orthodox Copts and Syrians and Ethiopians participate fully in the services and receive the Holy Light - this has precious little to do with "Orthodoxy" since the Oriental Christians are not considered "Orthodox" by the Eastern Orthodox.

The Holy Light occurs as part of the Eastern Paschal celebrations. I've never been to a Latin Easter celebration, but I don't think it approximates the Orthodox Eastern one.

The Latins in Jerusalem participated in the Holy Light miracle for years, with the Eastern Christians, when they shared the same Paschalion with the Eastern Churches. The Holy Light did not refuse to light up the lanterns of Roman Catholics at that time - which also includes the time after the schism of 1054 and later.

This miracle is for everyone, Orthodox or not.

Just as non-Christians often pray at Christian shrines and experience miracles too . . . the Orthodox Shrine of St Basil Ostroshki in Montenegro and other places. The HOly Oil from the tomb of St John of San Francisco has also been known to cure Jews and Muslims of blindness and disease.

The real tragedy is that while the Holy Light enlightens us at Pascha, many of us still refuse to see the Love of God that shows brightly and warmly through it!

A good Pascha to all!

Alex

Amen!

Consider: the Holy Fire always descended in the days before the Schism which divided us into Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

So it was coming down from heaven to people who were in the united Church of the first 1000 years of Christianity.

Here is what Pope Urban said of the Holy Fire in 1096 when he was urging Western Christendom to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims:


"Of holy Jerusalem, brethren, we dare not speak, for we are exceedingly afraid and ashamed to speak of it. This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God. Such is the heap of reproach upon us who have so much deserved it! Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body?
But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord's Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over. The Turks violently took from it the offerings which you brought there for alms in such vast amounts, and, in addition, they scoffed much and often at Your religion. And yet in that place (I say only what you already know) rested the Lord; there He died for us; there He was buried.

"How precious would be the longed for, incomparable place of the Lord's burial, even if God failed there to perform the yearly miracle! For in the days of His Passion all the lights in the Sepulchre and round about in the church, which have been extinguished, are relighted by divine command. Whose heart is so stony, brethren, that it is not touched by so great a miracle? Believe me, that man is bestial and senseless whose heart such divinely manifest grace does not move to faith!"

------

During the period of the Crusades when the West took Jerusalem from the Muslims and created the shortlived Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem and also a Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem the fire did not descend for the Latin Patriarch. This led to a backlash against the miracle by the Franciscans in the Holy Land and they became quite bitter enemies of the Holy Fire and used their influnce to downplay its significance.

What fascinating stuff is being discussed here!!

Arbannon wrote:
"I can show AT LEAST one occasion when a uniate bishop (if i remember exactely was from the assyrian church) went to Rome, pope forced him to lay on the ground by putting his feet (sole of the shoes) on his head, to show that he is the Vicar of Christ, whereas other bishops are servants of this Vicar."

This was in the time of Vatican I and Pope Pius IX and concerns the Melkite Catholic Patriarch Gregory Yussuf. Patriarch Gregory had stolen away from Rome and the Council because he was determined not to vote for Papal Infalliblity. But Pope Pius had him brought back to Rome and obliged him to sign the decree on Papal Infalliblity although Gregory had the temerity to add a clause or two asserting he would understand it in the tradition of the Eastern Church!!

Pius IX was a little put out by the Patriarch's well known opposition to infallibility and when the Patriarch kissed the Pope's foot (it was traditional to do that in those days) the Pope placed his other foot on the head of the Patriarch and stomped on him for a while saying, according to the Melkites: "Gregory, you are a hard headed man."

After Pius IX died, the Holy Synod of the Melkite Catholic Church sent two reports of this event to Rome. They hoped to prevent any attempt to canonise Pius IX.