www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West THE CHALLENGES FACING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN RUSSIA

Dear Kurt,

You are right, of course, except in your final point.

Of course, no one is born Russian Orthodox, or Roman Catholic for that matter.

But Rome itself has affirmed the Russian Church's right to its own canonical territory and does not dispute that fact.

What we also forget is that small matter of 70 plus years of soviet occupation.

I wonder what the West and its churches would have looked like had they gone through the same ordeal, and the Orthodox East was spared?

I think that, had that happened, the world would have been Orthodox.

Alex

Alex,

If you could provide a citation, it would be helpful, but I think you are mistaken that Rome itself has affirmed the Russian Church's right to its own exclusive canonical territory.

As to Catholicism under Communism, you only have to look to Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Vietnam, Romania, Cuba, and the Czech Republic.

K.

Dear Kurt,

This principle is strung throughout the Catholic-Orthodox consultation committee's proceedings. It has been a while since I liked reading those . . .

Catholicism does indeed exist in all those countries you cite.

But we're talking geopolitics here, my friend!

Alex

Alex, my friend,

I am not a theologian. But as to your second point, I think you make a good case for the need for a Universal Pastor of the Church. If this is part of God's plan for the Church or just a utilitarian way of protecting the Church from civil harm, who knows? But the evidence seems to be Christian churches are better off with a universal pastor protecting them.

On the first point, I understand the language of sister churches, valid sacraments, the integrity of a particular community, etc. I just think one is streching it to say a non-Christian who by accident of history live on one side of a man-made civil line of demarcation can not have the Gospel preached to him, but onthe other side of a civil boundry can.

K.

Hello:


First of all, it is incorrect to equate the terms "Evangelization" and "Proselytism".

The Catholic Church has a great task with the Evangelization of Catholics, because many of our people don't live by the Gospel. Evangelization is something we do with people that need to hear the Good News, whether they are Catholics or otherwise, Christian or otherwise.

So, the Catholic Church wants to Evangelize Russia. Great! That means that we want to contribute with the restoration of the Evangelical values of a country with a great Christian tradition that was recently brutalized by a materialistic and atheistic secular government.

Shouldn't we ALL rejoice?

But does this means that we are there to do proselitism? Not at all, but of course, if we do our job well, who would blame anyone who wants to join forces with us? Should we deny anyone because of his/her previous religious affiliation? Where do the Fathers teach this?

But even then, it wouldn't surprise me to see Catholics actively bringing people back into the Orthodox Church. We do that right now, even outside "traditionally Orthodox" territory.

There is an Ukrainian Orthodox Monastery in Indiana (UAOC), which happens to be located in an area with a strong Hispanic inmigrant population. As you can suppose, most of these are at least nominally Roman Catholic, but the Catholic Church in the area (for reasons unknown to me) is not doing a very good job with the care of their souls.

This concerned the Orthodox Archimandrite, the Rev. Fr. Theodosius, who found my Spanish translation of the Divine Liturgy on the web. He was so satisfied with the equivalence to their own official version, that he decided to use it for bilingual Liturgies and potentially Spanish Liturgies in the future if there is need.

He also requested a Spanish version of the Akathist to Our Lady because he offered a special service the week of last Dec. 12th, feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I recentlt sent him translations for the Serive of Forgiveness and the Liturgy of the Presanctified (just in time, for the UAOC is old-calendar).

Isn't it safe to assume that some if not most of these people will eventually convert to Orthodoxy even if there isn't any further proselytist effort from Fr. Theodosius?

And since the Catholic Church is neglecting them (although it might be not on purpose, but for lack of resources), isn't it even kind of right for them to convert to the Church that is actually taking care of their spiritual needs?

Isn't it a blessing that it is an Orthodox Church the one that is working with them instead of the Mormons or the JWs?

Shouldn't the Russian Orthodox be happy that the Catholic Church is willing to help (and is actually already helping) with a task they don't have the means to accomplish, at least not in the near future?

If there is a Catholic community in Russia focusing in converting Orthodox faithful to the Catholic Church, I would be the first one to object. With so MUCH work to do, it is at least a sinful waste of time to basket-fish that way!

But the reverend hirarchs of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow have yet to document a single case of Catholic proselytism, while (and of course *if*) they manage, we will continue our work in favor of the great people of Holy Russia.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Ality,

I agree.

Alex

May I recommend the idea of forming an association of lay North American Catholics, Latin and Eastern, to assist the Russian Orthodox Church in its mission and evangelization of the Russian Republic and Central Asia?

I would think this should be a specifically Catholic and lay initiative and it should accept the direction of the Hierarch of the Patriarchial Parishes (or if some better conduit exists, that) and let them tell us how we can be most helpful.

Does this idea have any merit?

K.

Kurt-

That does sound like a good idea. Although why should it be a specifically lay org. A good majority of Latin lay, not to mention clerical, have little to no knowledge of the Eastern Churches. Perhaps the Eastern Catholic Churches could establish this within their own churches? Or is this what you have in mind?

I guess even TV isn\'t allowed... [ewtn.com]

Hello Kurt�

I think your idea has merit and I note that there are RC organizations who already assist the ROC with everything including money�

But�

I once worked for a boss who would get very upset with me over leaving my tools around. I had never had any of my tools stolen, so if I forgot something I would put my tools to the side of the hallway and go to the basement to get it. Several times - upon my return - I would find that the boss had come by and hidden my tools in a closet from me - to pretend they were stolen - and teach me a lesson. He was obsessed with the fear people would steal the tools if left unguarded. Several weeks late - an outside contractor came in to work - and during the week end they locked up their tools in a gang box (a big steel box with lock). My boss asked me to go through their tools to see if there was anything we could use. I told him I did not do that stuff. He went to his desk and took out a lock pick set and did it himself.

The ROC has been at the forefront of trying to get the RC banned from all Russia as �not a traditional Russian church�.

And that reminds me! I think I remember scores of years where communist troops added to ROC real estate� and the ROC did not refuse the booty. Need we mention KGB?

While all that is still in the memory of the ROC hierarchy - they will be expecting any church coming into their area to do what they allowed.

We must wait at least one generation.

This is my own opinion.

-rayK

-ray,

I never go through other companies "gang boxes", subsequently thier tools, without permission, as that goes against tradesmen proper edicit. And I wouldn't want to get my fingers cut off.

My view on this has changed. I think we the Catholic Church should back off of Russian evangilization. That is evangilization that seeks to bring Russians into the Latin Catholic Church. Why do I feel this way now? Because I think much of the time I have trouble seeing the world through the lens of an American. Put it this way - the Gregorian calendar we Westerners use, came from the Catholic Church. This was before America was the superpower it is and the world media power it is. The Church incorporated the days of the year, the natural seasons as it is, with feast days of the Saints and Marytrs. The Christian religion was / would be almost like one with the natural order of each and every day. This was something culturaly that I don't think I can quite understand fully as an American of the 21st century. So now what does the modern Gregorian calendar in America look like now - just numbered days with race car pictures and a few holidays such as Christmas and Valentine Days... and oh days for the "fathers of our country" of course not the fathers of our Church.

The East like Russia, has such a cultural tie with it's Christian religion that is like of an intrinsic day by day nature, that is so totally foriegn to us types of the the American brand and our sunday best attitude that we can't grasp why Russsia can't be like us in the West with "all you can eat" religiosity.

The Roman Church has a far greater threat arising that at this point it is to blind to see. One that is emerging to pose every bit a challenge to it that the Saracen did, and one that may very well emerge as a greater foe then the Communist empire ever was. Narco gangs and it's Cartels.

A Revision for the 21st Century:

A Jew was robbed and beaten and left at the side of the road. Three people walked by. The third was a Samaritian who looked at him and said "You are a Jew and therefore part of the canonical territory of the Jews. I am sorry" And the Samaritian kept on walking, observing the Law.

Dear Maximus,

Thank you for your extremely thoughtful and honest post on this matter.

The best thing I've read on this subject ever!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kurt:
[QB]"May I recommend the idea of forming an association of lay North American Catholics, Latin and Eastern, to assist the Russian Orthodox Church in its mission and evangelization of the Russian Republic and Central Asia?

Does this idea have any merit?"

Absolutely! If this gets off the ground, sign me up. As a Greek Catholic, I am appalled at how Rome has been handing this situation in Russia for a handful (if that) of Catholics there. It's indisputably an example of sheep stealing. If Rome were really serious about helping the ROC and about treating it as a sister Church, she would not open another RCC there but instead help the ROC learn to evangelize and reach out, and all Roman resources could be directed toward this end. That's the only ecumenism worthy of the name!


Adam