www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question for our Ukrainian friends

But isn`t an old eastern tradition,(at least orthodox) that the priest-to-be should marry before the ortination?!?

Agreed there Krysostomos - and I think we are all agreed on that - but in the US a while back there were difficulties - and hopefully this is all history now. It was a very sad time for the Eastern Catholics then.

Yes, Krysystomos, as Anhelyna well put it SHOULD have been the traditional practice. But because of certain pressures from the Latins as well as interior insecurities and lack of identity, the Greek Catholics accepted the "ban", which was only for the US. It created immense problems, including some quite large-scale migrations to Orthodoxy. Thank God we now are regaining what Archbishop Elias Zoghby called "the courage to be ourselves".
DD

Yes, many, many Eastern Catholics joined the Orthodox Church back then.

So many, that the OCA even declared one of the "convert" priests a saint because he persuaded Greek Catholics to "return" to their Orthodox roots.

That "sainting" event put Ecumenism back 100 years.

Dear Pavloosh,

Well, I don't know why the canonization of St Alexis Toth should have put ecumenism back a century . . .

There have always been Saints in both the RC and Orthodox Churches whose defense of their "True Church" and even deprecation of the other side was and is considered a virtue.

The RC Church has St Josaphat and St Andrew Bobola as well as Blessed Gabra-Michael of Ethiopia and others who died in conflict with the local Orthodox.

The Orthodox Church has quite a few saints who were killed by RC's and EC's such as the 26 Orthodox Martyrs of Zographou Monastery on Mt Athos (and others) who refused to accept the Unia and were burned in their monasteries.

There is St Athanasius of Brest who was martyred by RC's and who was venerated as a national martyr by EC's until the RC Jesuits re-established the feast of ST Josaphat in September to try and get EC's to stop going on pilgrimage to Athansius' shrine.

Liturgical services in the UGCC refer to the Orthodox as "schism-loving brothers" (but "brothers" still! ). And liturgical services in the Orthodox Church refer to RC's and EC's not only as "heretics" but also, as in the service to ST Job of Pochaiv, as the "New Hagarenes."

The Greek service to St Photios the Great of Constantinople refer to the Filioque as to the "lawless addition to the Creed."

The canonizaton of St Alexis Toth is "small ecumenical potatoes" by comparison to a well-established tradition here, Big Guy!

Ciao!

Alex

DEar Krysostomos,

I'm sure many a celibate EC priest who had the privilege of meeting Anhelyna would leave sighing deeply in regret that he hadn't come across her before his ordination . . .

Alex

The canonization of St Alexis Toth is a trifle problematic, because it was not prepared by any movement of prayer, and some of those who were there on the day of the canonization at St Tikhon's were shocked at the blatant attacks on the Greek-Catholic Church (it is quite possible to canonize a saint without attacking someone else's religion - the canonization of Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton, for example, did not involve attacks on the Episcopal Church).

I've not yet seen any service to Saint Alexis. But I rather doubt that the canonization is much of an ecumenical setback - it may have been a small hiccup, but that's about it. In terms of the events associated with him, what else could the man have done? He could not abandon his flock, nor could he envision a priest functioning with no Bishop - the existence of the Bishop in California must have come as a God-send.

Incidentally, recognizing a Saint does not necessarily commit anyone to recognizing some of the weirder flights of fancy in devotional texts in honor of that Saint.


Incognitus

The proper liturgical texts for St. Alexis were prepared prior to his canonization and were used for the first time at that event. St. Tikhon's published a booklet with a short vitae, Great Vespers, Matins, Liturgy, and Akathist Hymn.

There is no doubt that the texts make oblique references to the Greek Catholic Church, and they often talk about St. Alexis leading his people to the True Faith, away from falsehood, etc. The akathist actually went through a revision, because some found the original to be too polemical. Compared with other liturgical texts, I find the quality of the texts to be mediocre, and the fact that almost all the hymnography is written for Tone 6 is disappointing; I can't imagine enduring that much Tone 6 Obikhod in one service.

Dave

Dear Incognitus,

Even the Orthodox Akathist to St Vladimir, Sir, contains a thrust at the "heresy" of the Catholic West - something the Russian Catholics were quick to change before they used it themselves.

The Orthodox aren't attacking another religion in referring to RC's and Uniates as "heretics" and "New Hagarenes."

They are attacking "heretics" plain and simply who tried (and still try) to "pervert" and otherwise harm Orthodoxy.

Don't you know what religious disagreements are really about?

Have a good night!

Alex

"The canonization of St Alexis Toth is a trifle problematic, because it was not prepared by any movement of prayer, and some of those who were there on the day of the canonization at St Tikhon's were shocked at the blatant attacks on the Greek-Catholic Church....."

That was my point when I commented that sainting Fr. Alexis Toth set Ecumenism back a hundred years. Maybe not a hundred years, but many Eastern Catholics here in the northeast region of Pensylvania reside were highly offended.

Incidentally, invitations over the years to our Orthodox brothers and sisters to join us Eastern Catholics in various prayer services have fallen on deaf ears. One wonderful exception - our Ukrainian Orthodox friends happily participate and obviously understand what Jesus Christ meant when he said to love one another.

Why do so many Orthodox seem so self righteous?

Every church, religion, group, faith community, whatever, has its fair share of the self-righteous. If we look inside of ourselves, I'm sure we can all find a bit of self-righteousness somewhere. So, I don't think that we Orthodox have the corner on that market.

That being said, I don't think that self-righteousness is the primary reason for the lack of Orthodox/Greek Catholic relations. Many on both sides (among the clergy and laity) still have misconceptions or just ignorance about the other side--this is probably one of the biggest issues. Also, as with anything in the East, events of the past still inform the attitudes and actions of today.

Finally, lack of joint prayer or joint services should not be viewed as a lack of love or friendship. You'd be surprised how many Orthodox and Greek Catholic priests in NEPA are on good terms, even without joint services (which, in many cases, are not permitted by the Orthodox hierarchs).

Dave

"Finally, lack of joint prayer or joint services should not be viewed as a lack of love or friendship. You'd be surprised how many Orthodox and Greek Catholic priests in NEPA are on good terms, even without joint services (which, in many cases, are not permitted by the Orthodox hierarchs."

WHY NOT PERMITTED BY THE ORTHODOX HIERARCHS???

BECAUSE...

Many Orthodox feel that joint services are a sign of unity, and so many jurisdictions do not allow them. While some Orthodox have been known to participate in "Ecumenical Services" wherein many denominations participate, a joint liturgical service between Orthodox and Greek Catholics would been seen as sending the wrong message, namely that full unity is accomplished.

As you noted, not all Orthodox have this discipline. The Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the United States will have joint services, even on the hierarchical level, like the recent Panachida for the victims of the Stalinist Famine.

Dave