www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope John Paul II "ex cathedra"

Does anyone know if Pope John Paul II has ever spoken from the chair of Peter ?
If so what has he decreed or promulgated ?

Brad

Dear IL:

For the past 200 years, the only 2 "ex cathedra" papal pronouncements we have thus far were contained in the:

(1) Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus, in which Pope Pius IX defined, in one sentence (the ex cathedra pronouncement) of the 32-page document, Mary's immaculate conception (1854); and

(2) Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus, in which Pope Pius XII, in one sentence (the ex cathedra pronouncement) of the 23-page document, declared the dogma of the Assumption (1950).

Normally, an "ex cathedra" pronouncement is contained in a Papal Encyclical which led some to believe that Pope John Paul II came close to issuing an ex cathedra pronouncement in his Encyclical "Ut Unum Sint."

On the contrary, the recent encyclical gives out previously defined articles of dogma as though they were up for discussion. Obviously, this is not the Church's Magisterium contradicting itself, but represents the current Pope's own personal opinions.

While a papal document may contain infallible truths, the entire document is not infallible. Infallible truths are discerned by their conformity to the unchanging teachings of the Church.

Such discernment becomes unnecessary when they are clearly contained in an "ex cathedra" pronouncement like in the two occasions adverted to above.

Amado

One problem with answering this question is the somewhat ambiguous meaning of "ex cathedra". There is debate in Catholic circles as to what exactly is required for something to be ex cathedra.

Regarding JPII, some say that his statement in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on the invalidity of women priests was ex cathedra. Here is his language:

Clearly this means that this is the definitive teaching of the Catholic Church, but does that make it ex cathedra?

Also, some say that the Pope's declaration against abortion in the encyclical Evangelium Vitae was ex cathedra.

Amando,

This is clear, concise, and so good to know. Thank you for posting it and thanks to Brad for introducing the topic.

I searched for about a half hour on line and couldn't get close to anything this comprehensive.

Bless you,


Mary Jo

Another instance where Pope John Paul II has come close to making an "ex cathedra" papal pronouncement is 1994's Ordinatio Sacerdotalis where the Holy Father declared:

But similar to the example Amado gave in his post - this was no new teaching, but a reiteration of the timeless teaching of the apostoloic churches East and West.

PAX

Dear Mary Jo:

Let's clarify further where the "ex cathedra" doctrine is relevant in the context of
"infallibility."

The charism of infalliblity inheres in the Church Christ established. There is no going around this because He is God.

We believe that that Church He established is the Catholic Church. If this is so, the Church's charism of infallibility can be exercised through any of the following organs:

(1) By the Pope singly, in an "ex cathedra" pronouncement as defined by Vatican I, the subject of this thread;

(2) By an Ecumenical Council under the presidency of the Pope; and

(3) By the world's bishops united, or in union, with the Pope.

(1) and (2) exemplify and constitute the "Extraordinary Magisterium" of the Church, while (3) is the "Ordinary Magisterium" of the Church.

Amado

Amando wrote: ....


[(2) By an Ecumenical Council under the presidency of the Pope; and

(3) By the world's bishops united, or in union, with the Pope.

(1) and (2) exemplify and constitute the "Extraordinary Magisterium" of the Church, while (3) is the "Ordinary Magisterium" of the Church.

Amado] [/QB][/QUOTE]


Thanks Amado, brother in Christ,

Would any of the above include Vatican I and II?

Mary Jo

Some would say that these are not ecumenical councils since the entire church did not participate in them. Many in the East only acknowledge the first seven councils as ecumenical.

Don't mess with Amado. He's in the law business.

I agree with Brother Elias - Ordinatio Sacerdotalis comes close but is merely a reiteration of immemorial teaching.

But who knows what the future holds, if the "redefinition" of Papal authority more in line with the first thousand years of the Church happens.

John Paul II certainly has a good vision of what that authority was like., I believe [wishfully, of course] he, John XIII, and Pius VI [you can throw in JPI], all post-Vatican II, in response to a desire for full reunification of East and West, have elected to let that teaching of Vatican I basically fall into disuse.

In my estimation, No!
For any pronoucement of a Pope to be infallible it has to be specifically stated that it is being taught ex cathedra, in other words, that this is an infallible and irreformable teaching of the Pope.
While "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis" was an infallible teaching of the Church because it has always been and shall always be held that the Priesthood is reserved to males, it was not an ex cathedra statement personally of JPII

Stephanos I

However, Diak is incorrect, the teaching of Vat I can never fall into disuse. The teaching of the Church concerning the infalibility of the Pope when he speaks "ex Catherdra" will always remain the doctrine of the Church. How he exercises that and if there is any development of how that is further limited in the Church is a matter which is open, but not a negation of his ability to speak infallibly.

Stephanos, if something isn't used, isn't that disuse?

Granted, a longer period transpired between Pius IX and Pius XII's proclamations than between Pius XII and the present. As I freely admitted, it is wishful thinking. But other canons of other councils have certainly fallen into disuse in the Roman Church which were assumed to be at the time assured perpetuity, such as the liturgical prescriptions of Trent [i.e. Quo Primum].

From the Eastern perspective, there was absolutely no need to make either of the last two "ex cathedra" determinations. Those of us confident in our practice of lex credendi, lex orandi really had no need of that.

And, realistically, neither have paved the way for any substantially larger Christian unity. No droves of churches outside of communion with Rome beat down her doors wanting communion because of those proclamations.

Diak,
Liturgical prescriptions are one thing,Dogma another.
Using one's perogatives as Pope, ie "being infallible," when speaking ex cathedra, and saying he does not possess it, are two different matters.
Stephanos I

To get back to the original question, as JPII is not in good health he cannot stand for long. Thus most of what he says is "ex cathedra" [from the chair].

Whereas I think Amado's points are valid, I think they should be clarified a bit.

The only statements accepted by all Catholics as ex cathedra statements are Ineffabilis Deus & Munificentissimus Deus. However, many faithful Catholics see ex cathedra statements in many more cases than just these two. If you look at the Vatican I definition, it does not make qualifications like "it must be in an Encyclical" or "it must use this formula...". It simply states that when speaking "ex cathedra", the Pope is infallible.

More precisely, Vatican I states:

Most theologians therefore say there are four conditions for a statement to be ex cathedra:

1) The Pope must be functioning as Pastor and supreme Doctor. It is not his teaching as a private or particular Doctor that is in question.

2) He must be dealing with matters of faith or morals, and it is only the proposed doctrine - not the adjoining considerations - the 'obiter dicta' that is guaranteed by infallibility.

3) He must intend to define; his teaching must be given with authority and with the intent that it be believed by the entire Church.

4) He must manifest his intention to bind all Catholics.

It seems to me that a lot of papal statements can fall under these conditions, including Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. So what is actually ex cathedra and what is not? Who decides?

I think this ambiguity is a problem, in that the Orthodox are probably very hesitant to believe that "Oh, the Pope doesn't exercise infallibility that often", when in fact, many Catholics believe that a large amount of his teachings are infallible. In practice, I find that many "on-the-street" faithful Catholics broadly define infallibility to include most papal statements, something which (rightly) makes the Orthodox uncomfortable.

Also, I agree with Diak that the two definite ex cathedra statements haven't done much for Christian unity. Personally, I think it is wise that the most recent Popes (John XXIII, Paul VI (not Pius VI), JPI, and JPII) have not used this authority, at least explicitly. Although the Pope may enjoy the charism of infallibility, I think something will be more accepted by all the faithful if it is declared in a council setting.

Actually, most of it is "ex popemobile" since that is where he seems to spend much of his time.