www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Visiting an SSPX =Excommunication?!

Since there seems to be so many threads concerning the SSPX on this list in recent months, I have decided to throw another log on the fire. Here is my question:

In nearby Kansas City, MO, there is a very large and magestic parish belonging to the SSPX (St. Vincent de Paul). I have often wanted to visit there but have feared the penalty of excommunication that supposedly accompanies anyone who attends a Mass at an SSPX chapel.

Would anyone know if simply visiting this parish (Without atending Mass) incur on an individual the status of ipso facto excommunication?

Thanks
Robert

PS. I understand that there are quit a few people from the Kansas City area on this list (Diak, Don, and that fellow in Witchita). Have anyone of you folks ever been to this parish? If so, can I get a description of what the parish is like and if the parishioners are friendly or not to visiting Traditionalist who are in communion with Rome and have no desire to join them?

Robert, the ipso facto excommunication is explicit for the bishops who were consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre back in 1988 and the threat of excommunication exists for those faithful and clergy who continue to perpretrate schism.

By simply attending to observe you would not be committing an act of excommunication. I would think twice about receiving Communion however, as it is a visible sign of ecclesial union, "the sacrament of the Church", as Schmemann puts it, to those who receive.

You could, however, attend the Fraternity of St. Peter's Mass at Blessed Sacrament Church (on 18th Street and Parallel Parkway) and receive Communion there as they are in communion with the Roman Church and they also offer only the Tridentine (1962) Mass.

About the schism, I supose that there's not a state of absolute schism. I know very few about the SSPX, but a little bit more about the "True Catholic Christians of Campos" in Brazil and their Bishop. Recently, they were "officially" received by the Pope with a regular status. There was never an allusion to schism or disobbedience, they used the world "canonically" received. The curious thing is that before that time, after the death of their Bishop they were under the "omophor" of the SSPX.

It has always amazed me how complicated are the laws of the Latin Church about communion, schism, administrative unity, etc. There are things that I don't understand.

It is known that the SSPX masses are absolutely orthodox, that there's no doubt about their Eucharist's validity and that their priests do not preach heresy but their status is uncanonical.

The local bishops strongly discourage the people to attend those liturgies because they're irregular (and they advice their people through internet, for example). They say that in those liturgies, the SSPX priests often "attack" some conducts of the Pope and the local bishops and that the members of the diocese should not go there. But on the other side, there are licit parishes with a regular status under the local bishop where there are serious doubts about the way the sacraments are offered (even using the Catholic procedure to know when a sacrament is valid or not: intention, matter, form...)and where the sermons are of a "modernist" inspiration, not attcking the Pope but exposing liberal views about personal morality, for example.

Is it that in the Catholic Church, an administrative communion with the Pope and the local Bishop, no matter how catholic the bishop is, is the visible sign of unity and not the faith they're suposed to share?

Remie,

I've said more than once that it seems to me that the SSPX folks (and others like 'em) believe in everything theat the Catholic Church teaches, except obedience.

Sharon

Dear Robert,

The SSPX had a few churches in our area that were being attended by many RC's who liked the Tridentine liturgy.

When our Lord Archbishop found out about it, he hit the roof and issued the indult for the Tridentine Masses etc.

If you want to attend to experience the Tridentine Liturgy, I would advise going to one in actual union with the Catholic Church and the Pope.

That way, if your eyes start to roll in your head and you think you've "seen the light" once and for all, you can continue to attend without qualms of conscience . . .

Alex

Dear Robert K:

A question similar to yours was answered by the Vatican's Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei in 1998, the text of which is available at:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX2.HTM

St. Vincent de Paul Church in Kansas City, MO, is, indeed, an SSPX chapel. The city is the site of the schismatic group's U.S. District Headquarters.

Nearby is a Roman Catholic Parish Church, "Our Lady of Sorrows Church," which celebrates a licit Tridentine Mass every Sunday at 9:15 a.m, in addition to the usual NO Masses.

In Kansas, the Archdiocese of Kansas City itself has 3 parishes celebrating Tridentine Masses:

Kansas City "Blessed Sacrament Church"
Sundays, 10:45 a.m.

Rossville "Church of St. Stanislaus"
Sundays, 8:30 a.m.

Topeka "St. Joseph Church"
Sundays, 12:00 noon

In the Diocese of Wichita, "St. Anthony's Church" celebrates the Tridentine Mass on the 2nd and 4th Sundays of the month.

All in all, I think there are now thousands of parishes in the world and hundreds in 120 dioceses throughout the U.S. which have been granted an indult to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

Your own parish may petition the local Bishop to grant such an indult if you have the necessary number of interested parishioners.

The SSPX group was disobedient to the Holy See. Now, it is DEFIANT! They are still in schism, the negotiations for their return to communion with the Roman Catholic Church having been stalled.

AmdG

Dear Amado,

I say this only half in jest, but it seems to me that in times past the Latin Church used to excommunicate with great fanfare and finality.

What has happened?

Alex

Alex, I think that those days are pretty well past, but in this case I also think there may well be many in the Curia who sympathize with much of the agenda of the SSPX...Cardinal Ratzinger has bent over backwards to try to get them to submit to Rome. If it were only the rites used in the modern Roman Liturgy that were questioned, then the reason for the Society's existence is no longer necessary, as the Society of St. Peter, other religious commmunities using the former Missal and the numerous "Indult" Masses are becoming more common all over the world. Currently, in my personal opinion, it is spiritual pride (THEY are heretics and WE are the only true Catholics)that keeps them from submitting. They have been on their own too long to ever rejoin Rome as a group. Look how they reacted when that group in Brazil returned to obedience to Rome? At least here in this area, they are quickly becoming a cult. Don

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Sorry to hear all that!

I think you are right on - it is more than just the liturgical rites that are involved here.

Vatican II, for them, is a council that is definitely NOT inspired by the Spirit and they would like to see many things promulgated by that council repealed etc.

This reminds me of the true story of a Russian Niconian bishop who wanted to get the Old Believers united in one Church.

The Old Believers welcomed him into their church, but as he was leaving, he noticed the parishioners were sprinkling holy water after him - apparently to ensure no evil spirits remained in church from the presence of the New Rite bishop . . .

If Cardinal Ratzinger ever became pope, I could see him return the Church to the Tridentine liturgy and office.

And I can't say that that would be such a bad thing for the Latin Church either!

But reunion with the SSPX would depend on the Latin Church accepting their brand of conservatism, as they see it, and nothing but the "absolute truth."

Alex

and again, according to the way "They" see it

Heaven Forfend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robert K,

As far as I have understood, you are not excommunicated for participating in an SSPX Mass, much less visiting their church. Actually, the laity of the SSPX are not even excommunicated from the Catholic Church (but SSPX bishops are). The laity is in a state of disobedience (but are not schismatic) whereas their bishops (and priests? i dunno) are, in fact, schismatics and are excommunicated. Generally, attending an SSPX Mass when one could attend an FSSP Mass is not recommended, but one does not incur a punishment for it.

ChristTeen287

What's the deal with Cardinal Ratzinger? There doesn't seem to be anything bad about him, really, but over at Beliefnet a TON of people attacked him personally. What's so bad about him?

ChristTeen287

Sharon mentioned a very important concept: obedience.It is hard to find where are the limits of obedience.

Traditional catholics like those of the SSPX claim that they're obedient to what their Chuch teaches, that the Quo Primum of Pope Pius V gives them the right to celebrate "the Mass of all times" and that the decree of Paul VI did not supress the use of that Mass. In this case they remain obedient to what their Church taught, but not to what the current Pope and Vatican II said. From what I understand, it was clear that the act of schism was the consacration of new Bishops by an French Bishop (a consacration without permission) but not their opposition to the NO Mass (is it right?).

The SSPX's conditions to start a dialogue with Rome are: the lifting of the excommunication and the restoration of the right of all priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass. Here the words that are used are: the Church must abandon the heresies of modernism and Ecumenism.

(notice that the ROCOR's conditions to recognize the Moscow Patriarchate are the repudiation of Sergianism and Ecumenism, the vocabulary is very similar).

Recently, I've been in contact with young traditional catholics who wanted to discuss Eastern orthodoxy (a very sui generis ecumenical group ).
From the discussions, I've understood that the heart of the problem in the inconsistent doctrines of the Western Church regarding the Papacy, and most of all, the developpment of doctrine. Traditional Catholics are not able to prove their reasons to stay out of "modernist" Rome.

Regarding the development of doctrine as "true", the Quo Primum of Pius V that says that there's a perpetual right to celebrate the Traditional Mass is no longer valid. If this is the case, nothing would have a perpetual value and it can be understood that the doctrines and dogmas of the Church can be changed and adapted to the current moment.

On the other side you have the doctrine of the Papacy, Pius V and the Council of Trent were
extremely clear in their decrees about what is permitted and what is not permitted (some of these decrees were thought to be perpetual).

Traditionalists point that some of the teachings of Vatican II were clearly opposed to the Trent Council, and some of the activities that appear now in the Western Church too (eucharistic ministers, women giving communion, lay people proclaiming the Scripture...)

If the Pope Pius V was infallible about this (and the Ecumenical Council too), can a future Council supress or invalidate the decrees (those which were explicitly perpetual)?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Robert,

The SSPX had a few churches in our area that were being attended by many RC's who liked the Tridentine liturgy.

When our Lord Archbishop found out about it, he hit the roof and issued the indult for the Tridentine Masses etc.

Its a good thing that your Archbishop decided to make such a favorable decision regarding the Tridentine mass within his diocese. However it is unfortunate, from what the "North American Latin Mass Directory" states, that these Toronto indult parishes only have one mass on each Sunday as opposed to having ones on weekdays and feast. Many Latin Trads, myself included, are not very happy about attending these types of indult parishes because they seem to be in use only to quit those who are in favor of the traditional mass by giving the bare basics (One mass on Sunday or, in some cases, every other Sunday, or once a month).

It never seems to occur to bishops who have done such things that prehaps trads would like to belong to a Church were they are able to feel as a community in which they would also be able to participate in a full cycle of TLM divine services and recieve the traditional rites for all the sacraments as well. Unfortunatly what you get with such indult parishes as described above is a mass community that often feels isolated from the the rest of it "host" parish and from the richness of a full sacramental life as well.
This is why, when possible, I personally preffer to attend Latin Trad parishes that are served by priestly groups such as the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, who are able to provide one with a full traditional platter of spirituality and sacramental life with dialy and holy day services that one may partake of when they so desire.

If Toronto's good Archbishop truly desires to show good will towards his trad flock then he should prehaps provide them with a more perminent community of faith in which they could grow in and be a part of on a regular (Even daily) basis.

Such a situation happlily exist, I believe, in Ottawa, in the famous parish of St. Clement's?

Robert Kearney

BTW, Thank you all again for the info and replys to my question.

What about the Society of Saint John?
Are they in a regular status like the Fraternity of St Peter?

I also have a question about some groups, such as the Society of St Pius V, are they canonical, or are they like those of the SSPX?