www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Diaconate declines in the Church

I was under the impression that all Orthodox jurisdictions require the "diakonissas" , as well as the "presvyteras" to also be Orthodox.
Perhaps some Orthodox posters can shed light on this.

Dn. Robert

I was under the impression that all Orthodox jurisdictions require the "diakonissas" , as well as the "presvyteras" to also be Orthodox.
Perhaps some Orthodox posters can shed light on this.

Dn. Robert [/QB][/QUOTE]

Any answers on this question?

I was under the impression that all Orthodox jurisdictions require the "diakonissas" , as well as the "presvyteras" to also be Orthodox.
Perhaps some Orthodox posters can shed light on this.

Dn. Robert [/QB][/QUOTE]

Deacon Robert, to be honest, I have never run across such a thing. The rules for the spouse of one ordained are actually quite strict, no actresses, prostitutes, milk maids(don't ask!), and must be virginal. They jurisdiction in question has a reputation for leaning a bit towards the liberal side, but unless there was some extreme need for economia, I truly don't understand it.

Alexandr

Deacon Robert, to be honest, I have never run across such a thing. The rules for the spouse of one ordained are actually quite strict, no actresses, prostitutes, milk maids(don't ask!), and must be virginal. They jurisdiction in question has a reputation for leaning a bit towards the liberal side, but unless there was some extreme need for economia, I truly don't understand it.

Alexandr [/QB][/QUOTE]

The Antiochians do have a broad understanding of "economia". I'm thinking of the priest who was allowed to re-marry after his wife's death, and continue in priestly ministry. He had young kids, if I remember. It's similar to the Latin Church in one way. If a married deacon loses his wife, it is possible to obtain a dispensation to re-marry and remain in diaconal ministry under certain circumstances, i.e., young children who need a mother. To the best of my knowledge, none of the Eastern Catholic Churches allow for this (whether for priests or deacons). I have to stress "to the best of my knowledge", because I find that I'm "out of the loop" on a lot of things, being tied up in a Bank office every day.

Dn. Robert

Perhaps the wife is in process of conversion.

She's not in the process of conversion. I have never heard of this idea that you must both be in communion in the same church, though it sounds reasonable. I think it's odd that she didnt convert too. I will ask Evangelos tonight at the Bible Study whats going on.

Next thing people are going to tell me I can't have an E Orthodox spiritual director if I'm Catholic. That'll sure make me mad too.

Then they're stretching ekonomia to its breaking point. Deacon is not a minor order.

In Catholicism, the wife of a deacon is not required to be Catholic, but must indicate that she is "supportive" of the husband's ministry. She (whether Catholic or not) must sign a document affirming her consent to the ordination. If there is any indication of a lack of support, there is no ordination. In Eastern Orthodoxy, as I mentioned above, the discipline, to the best of my knowledge, is stricter. This is the first time I've ever heard of an Orthodox ordination to major orders where the spouse of the ordinand is not Orthodox. As to the issue of spiritual directors, I know that our Deacons can only have Catholic spiritual directors, and in our Eparchy, they (the spiritual directors) must be ordained at least to the level of priesthood.

Dn. Robert

I believe that Orthodox canon law requires the spouse of a priest or deacon to be Orthodox also. I am sure someone can do the research. It would not be the first time that the Antiochian hierarchs in this country stretched economia to the limits, only to have the correction and rebuke to the hierarch come from the Synod in Damascus.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Yes it was economia. The Church needed a deacon..I still havent had time to hear the story why she hasnt joined the same communion as him, it is a long story related to her extended family or parents. But she is supportive of him.

I don't understand why the Orthodox would be stricter than Catholics on ordaining deacons with wives of the same communion.

CM:

The Orthodox Church would be stricter than the Catholic Church because

1. the Orthodox Church has not caught the virus of western liberalism that has so infected the Latin and Latin-related Catholic Church in the 20th century,
2. the Orthodox Church still holds her liturgical life as the Pearl of Great Price that is the Faith in action--the jealously guarded treasure that is still worth fighting for and for its purity,
3. the Orthodox Church still sees doctrine and the discipline needed to keep it pure and holy as something to struggle and fight for in a world where everything is relative,
4. the Orthodox Church still sees herself as the steward of the Faith and the life Christ gave to the Church, always keeping the thought that she will be accountable for how she exercises her stewardship at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the Last Day, and
5. the Orthodox Church still approaches the Christian life as being one in which the new Christian is lead into a disciplined life that has as its goal communion with Christ. She does not believe, as so many liberals in the West do, that one can easily attain to the Christian life without this disciplined approach.

This is not to say--wholesale--that the Latin and Latin-related Catholic Church does not endeavor to do the same. It is to admit, however, that too much liberalism has crept into some of these areas and paralyzed people in positons of authority so that they believe that in the interests of "pastoral sensitivity" they should let many of these things slide.

In Christ,

BOB

Without castigating anyone for anything, experience has long since shown that having a priest or deacon with a wife who does not belong to his Church is pastoral lunacy. I remember a case in a large OCA parish (which I am deliberately not identifying because I do not wish to embarrass the individuals concerned) - the priest was, obviously, Orthodox and his presvytera was Roman Catholic. We shall draw a veil over the precise troubles that occurred, but it most emphatically did not work, and could not be expected to work.

When the Latins began ordaining married priests (former Anglican clergy) in the USA and Canada, some Latin bishops came to our hierarchs for practical advice. Our hierarchs were shocked that the Latin bishops would even consider ordaining a man whose wife was not Catholic.

Fr. Serge

Well as a Byzantine Catholic deacon whose wife is Presbyterian, I can say that having a spouse who belongs to a different church can be hard, but in many ways it has actually helped me. It has forced me to grow and look at ways to present my faith in positive ways rather than in we're right/you're wrong polemics. My wife has been completely understanding of my vocation and has supported me as well as any deacon's wife, perhaps better, and she has 4 children 11, 7, 3, and newborn whom she cares and works partime on top of that. Each case must be evaluated on its own merits, to have a blanket rule seems to me shortsighted and if it existed obviously I would not be a deacon.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The RC Diocese of Palm Beach just ordained 14 new deacons; Miami had over 80 applicants for about 40 (4-5 year) formation slots, beginning in September, '06...and all this with the understanding that they will never be paid a penny for their work.
Palm Beach graduates their deacons with an M.A. degree, while Miami requires similar coursework at their seminary, but awards no degree for it.

Just responding to Benedictine's earlier post on canonical age; the 35 year age is for married permanenet Deacons, but the Latin CHurch does allow for the ordination of celibate men to the permanent Diaconate at 25; a provision sadly rarely (if ever) used I fear. As I often say, until there are celibate permanent deacons, chances of it being seen as a legitimate order of equal importance to priesthood are small (in the Latin Church).

In response to Learining as I go, does anyone know what the canons on Diaconal Ordination in Orthodox jurisdiction say on the matter of age and studies, and current practices in thaqt area? (Private message me if there's too much to post).

Ned