www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Transubstantiation

Christine<<Although the scholastic term "transubstantiation" is one that many Eastern Christians would not be comfortable with it is my understanding that the Eastern view also holds that even though our bodily senses see and taste bread and wine, they have been truly and really changed into the sacramental presence of Christ.>>

When I receive the Holy Gifts in Divine Communion, Khrystyna, I have no doubts whatsoever that I am receiving the very Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, althought the Symbols of food, i.e., bread and wine, remain simultaneously.

OrthodoxEast

Of course you are!

But there is even a bit of a different slant on the way a Lutheran and a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian would perceive the meaning of "symbols." Consubstantiation in the Lutheran view means that the Real Presence only remains during the celebration of Holy Communion -- for a Catholic Christian once the "change" has taken place, it is permanent.

Dear Khrystyna and OrthodoxEast,

Yes, permanent as long as the "accidents" of bread and wine are kept intact.

There are, as you know, a number of Eucharistic Miracles where the Hosts do not decay . . .

St Peter Mohyla writing in the 17th century provided guidelines for Orthodox priests in this respect.

There were and still occur many Eucharistic miracles where the bread and wine take on either the form of Human flesh and blood or else assume the form of a small child in the chalice itself.

Peter taught that such should be put aside and covered by the Priest to be reexamined later to see if the miracle had resumed its normal appearance - since otherwise what is on the altar is NOT Holy Communion.

If not, then the Priest is to take fresh bread and wine and recite the Eucharistic Canon once more.

The Lutherans also allowed their members to hold the doctrine of Transubstantiation and held this and Consubstantiation as being equally "orthodox."

I think theologians today see in the Lutheran Consubstantiation an attempt to try and go beyond the restrictions of pagan Greek philosophic categories on which transubstantiation was established ("Accidents" vs. "Substance").

Consubstantiation ultimately holds that "if it looks like bread, and tastes like bread, it must be bread."

Of course, the danger with this is always a kind of "Eucharistic Nestorianism" where the bread and wine subsist together with the Body and Blood of Christ . . . And that would be intolerable heresy from the Orthodox-Catholic point of view.

Alex

Dear Brendan,

Yes, Pope St Pius X was most perspicacious, and especially with respect to the East!

When the Russian Catholic Church was formed under Met. Andrew Sheptytsky, the Russians asked that they not be expected to adopt Latin liturgical celebrations such as Corpus Christi, the Sacred Heart etc.

St Pius X allowed them to substitute the office for the "Sweetest Lord Jesus" instead.

Sheptytsky also applied to have the Russian Orthodox saints approved for veneration by the Russian Catholics - and Pius X granted this as well.

And when Sheptytsky told St Pius about the rights of the Ukrainian Catholic Church - St Pius simply said, "Then make use of your rights!"

A very forward-looking, ecumenical and practical Pope, with a great love for prayer, Holy Communion and assisting the poor.

Why the SSPX chose him as their patron is beyond me . . .

Alex

Dear Teen Logo,

Actually, I thank you because your probing questions helped me better understand this issue, especially in relation to the way both East and West understand the Priesthood.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Your point regarding the "accidents" is well taken. As far as Lutheran belief in transubstantiation, I would not be surprised to find that in the more "high church" Lutheran parishes but I very rarely encountered it in my Lutheran youth. Consubstantiation was more widely preferred in the more evangelical Lutheran parishes I knew. But of course this was during an era when there was still a firm Lutheran allergy to anything too "Roman". Since the liturgical movement there has been much stronger convergence in Lutheran/Catholic thinking, thanks be to God.

Khrystyna

And, not forgetting to add, as Lutherans have continued to recover their liturgical heritage they have discovered their strong connection to the Christian East in their common devotion to the Resurrection and the "mystery" of the Sacrament of the Altar.

Khrystyna

Dear Khrystyna,

Yes indeed!

I came across a Lutheran who had studied forms of making the Sign of the Cross etc.

I've spoken with High Church Lutheran pastors previously - and I must confess I failed to see where they differed from most Catholic and Orthodox doctrines and praxis.

And why the Swedish/Finnish Lutherans aren't with Rome now is beyond me . . .

One of the better books on Mary is by a Lutheran Pastor (A Protestant Pastor looks at Mary) and he urges a return to the recitation of the Rosary!

Hmmm . . . Dominican or Briggittine, do you think?

Alex

Dearest Alex and Khrystyna,

lacking a Catholic pre-school in our area, my wife and I send our 4 year old to a Lutheran Preschool.

One day, the teacher took us asided and said my son, at prayer time, recited the 'Ave Maria'. She was a bit agitated by this.

Thinking it was because our 4 year old happens to know his prayers in Latin , I mentioned that we say a chaplet of them every night.

That wasn't the issue. She objected to it doctrinally!!

Of course, as I recited the 'Hail Mary' in English, she could not say what was objectionable about it.
Her general comment was 'We just don't do that!'

I also commented that since the chance of any of the other children spoke Latin was miniscule, there was little danger of 'doctrinal corruption' to her other charges. :rolleyes:

Khrystyna , the ECLA is pretty Catholic friendly, but in the other synods , there is STILL an allergy to things Catholic. Which is interesting, because they are generally the 'High Church' Lutherans, and have more in common with us than ECLA.

What a world we live in.

Yours in Christ,

-Brendan

Dear Alex and Brendan,

It is my one of my dearest hopes that the Lutheran family of Christians will one day achieve a degree of unity that will enable them to seek greater unity with all of Christ's catholic Church.

Brendan, is your son attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran school? I was raised in the Missouri Synod and at that time it was still very "catholic" in its beliefs and liturgy. From what I understand now some Missouri Lutherans are becoming almost evangelical fundamentalists. It makes me very sad to hear of your son's experience. The teacher was out of line. One reason I was able to joyfully and quickly embrace the Rosary is because I was raised with a firm belief in the Communion of Saints and the frequent recitation of the Apostles Creed. Having already been accustomed to praying the Creed, the Our Father and the Glory Be it was a small and welcome step to take in adding the Hail Mary.

I would agree with you that liturgically the ELCA is more "catholic" but unfortunately with the ordination of women and some very liberal positions on abortion, etc. a big stumbling block has been created to reunion with both Roman Catholics and the Orthodox. Those impediments also exist with the Swedish/Finnish Lutherans (the Swedes, I believe, have now ordained a women bishop who in turn was reported to have performed a same-sex marriage) who, as Alex rightly pointed out, are very high church and catholic in belief and practice.

My mom, a very proud and devoted Lutheran, was raised in a more pietistic environment and was scandalized when U.S. Lutherans began to move toward a recovery of weekly Communion and the move from the plain "scholar's robe" of the clergy to historical vestments. But she always expressed a grudging envy for the May crownings her Catholic friends took her to in childhood!

Much remains to be done.

Alex, I admire the Dominicans but I'll go for the Brigittines!

Khrystyna

Dear Khrystyna and Scotus,

I once tried to convince a Lutheran that the Rosary was fine since Martin Luther said it all his life, had an image of Mary in his room, and even believed in the Immaculate Conception!

But to no avail . . .

There is a "Lutheran Orthodox" independent group that has married certain aspects of Lutheranism with Orthodox-Catholic faith and practice and call themselves the "Evangelical Catholic Church," but many High Church Anglicans and Lutherans have also called themselves this.

Certainly, we may only really look to European Continental Lutherans for such Catholic devotional expressions.

But the Lutherans who have engaged in ecumenical discussions with the RC Church have posited a vision of future church union where the Lutherans would have a Patriarchate and their own Rite within the family of Catholic Rites!

Of course, the Apostle of the North, St Anskar of Hamburg, was the originator of the idea of a Northern Patriarchate based in Hamburg. Norway did develop its own Catholic liturgical tradition, the Rite of Trondheim, which was also practiced in some of the Channel Islands at one time.

But Catholic theologs basically see historic and classical (rather than later) Lutheranism as an expression of a northern European liturgical Rite.

St Clement Hofbauer of the Redemptorists spent his life missionizing among the Protestants of Germany.

He was to have said, "The Germans became Protestants because they wanted to live as Christians."

And the Church canonized him nevertheless . . .

Alex

Yes indeed! I was very happy when the Lutheran Book of Worship which came out in 1975 encouraged Lutherans to begin and end the day making the Sign of the Cross. Luther would have been proud! He truly was the least iconoclastic of the reformers and retained a truly sacramental spirituality.

One of the best books I've ever read on the subject is the great scholar Jaroslav Pelikan's "The Riddle of Roman Catholicism", written when he was still Lutheran. Professor Pelikan is, of course, now a member of the Orthodox family and I look forward to more great writings to come from him.

Khrystyna

Dear Khrystyna,

I guess that was a riddle Pelikan just couldn't figure out . . .

Alex

Oh sure Alex, go ahead and make me smile and ruin my properly dour Latin Lenten countenance!!!

Actually, I have to laugh a bit, one of Pelikan's musings in the book was that all the great Christian traditions should work within their own households toward reunion (and I obediently and enthusiastically nodded my head in agreement), so what did we both do? Converted to another tradition, of course! But never mind ... our baptism links us all irrevocably in Christ.

Khrystyna

Dear Khrystyna,

Well, I think you can still lay claim to being an "Evangelical Catholic" - which is the original name Lutherans were called by.

Martin Luther hated the fact that his followers were called after him - as if he, not Christ, was their saviour . . .

I've said this before, but I wrote an Akathist to Jan Hus who is, as you know, very much honoured by the Lutherans (and others).

A part of it is sung today in a few High Church German Lutheran parishes

Hus generated much interest among the Orthodox as well and in the 19th century, the Old Catholics formally asked the Orthodox Church if, upon union with it, they could continue to honour Hus and Jerome of Prague.

I've never actually read the Orthodox response to that - probably negative.

But since that time, it has been discovered that Jerome of Prague converted to Orthodoxy in Latvia and a copy of his Orthodox baptismal certificate has been found - igniting interest in the Czech Orthodox Church to canonize him.

Hus is simply honoured popularly as a martyr and that is that.

Following the Hussite Wars, an Englishman, John Payne, went to Bohemia and formally joined the Hussite Calixtine (High Church) group. He went to Constantinople where he converted to Orthodoxy and was consecrated an Orthodox bishop, Bp. "Constantine Anglikos" and returned to Bohemia where he ministered to Hussites who became Orthodox - and there were a few at that time.

The fact is that Czech Orthodoxy has always been attractive to Hussites and one Czech Orthodox priest once told me that he secretly wished the Orthodox Church could approve of the cult of Jan Hus - it would help him convert more Hussites to Orthodoxy!

Russian Orthodox theologians writing in the 19th century (and I once wrote an essay on this in university ) claimed Hus for their own and said he was in the Cyrillo-Methodian tradition with his emphasis on the vernacular in the Liturgy and the Bible, married priesthood, Communion under both Kinds (the Chalice became a Hussite symbol).

Pan-Slavic poets, such as Taras Shevchenko, wrote about Hus and Shevchenko referred to him, in his poem on Shafarik, as:

"The Holy Czech
The Great Martyr
The Glorious Hus

...and I will pray that all Slavs may become as 'heretical' as that Great Heretic of Constance!"

Alex