www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is that Saint Anthony of Padua's icon in a ROCOR church?

Here is an icon of Saint Anthony of Padua from Monastery Icons:

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Look at the far right side of this photo, near the middle. Now look carfully at the image of the saint who is to the right of the crucifix.

It sure looks like Saint Anthony!

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I've been to this church before, so I plan to visit it again and see it with my own eyes. I'll let you know if it really is Saint Anthony of Padua.

I am very curious about this.

From that painting from Monastery Icons it sure looks like the Icon in the Church is that of Saint Anthony of Padua.

Indeed it does. Ah, if only Alex were here. What is the name of this Church? Does it have a website?

CDL

The church is Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR) in Oxnard , CA where the late Bishop Alexander Mileant served before his falling asleep in the Lord.

The parish website is currently offline. The closest thing is this link on the late Bishop Alexander's website: www.fatheralexander.org/page14.htm [fatheralexander.org] That where I noticed the icon of Saint Anthony of Padua in the church interior.

Yes, the Franciscan cord is visible and distinctive... I have a couple Orthodox friends with St. Francis icons.

If not St. Anthony, then I'd love to know who it is!

The only e-mail contact address I could find on the web site is:
theology_school_eng@holytrinitymission.org

Does anyone want to write to Bishop Alexander and ask about the icon?
I can't see the icon clearly enough in the picture, sorry.

Unfortunately, Bishop Alexander passed away on September 2005.

I have visited the church before but didn't notice the image of Saint Anthony until I saw the photos on the web.

I plan to visit again soon to confirm whether or not it's Saint Anthony.

As +Bishop Alexander was very active in outreaching to the Hispanic community, translating numerous services and spiritual writings into Spanish and Portuquese, I would not be surprised at all if the icon in question turns out to be St Anthony.

Alexandr

I would be very surprized. In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, only saints canonized or accepted by our church would be portrayed on icons.
No iconographer's manual I have consulted includes an icon with a saint holding the Christ Child (except the Mother of God) and not the Christ Child standing on a book.
Could the inclusion of this item be the result of Bishop Alexander's personal piety as implied above?

The image is difficult to make out. But in general, one should be aware that "Monastery Icons" is run by a community which is more Hindu than Christian and certainly does not follow Orthodox canons when it comes to their "iconography". I most strenuously advise never taking them for an example, never purchasing anything from them, and above all never allowing anything from them in one's home or one's church.

Fr. Serge

Took a closer look with a Photoshop-type program.

It sure does look like St.AoP. When it's expanded, even when pixelated, it's really hard to think of anyone else it could be.

I suppose intercommunal icons aren't really too unusual. I know a Greek Catholic Church with icons of St. John of Kronstadt and St. Photios. I'm just a bit surprised that it's ROCOR.

And artistically, I would put a Mexican/Spanish-style retablo rather than an icon. I just find icons of western themes a bit weird.

Isn't it also unusual to find a crucifix in a ROCOR Church? Or in any Orthodox Church?

No, it is not unusual to find a crucifix in an Orthodox Church. In the Greek practice the crucifix with removable corpus is kept in the sanctuary behind the altar. It is processed out Holy Thursday/Friday and the corpus is removed at the conclusion of the vespers of Holy Friday. In the Slavic practice it is generally stored on the side as you see pictured and generally in the area where memorial services are performed. More than likely in the Slavic practice the corpus is not removable from the cross. The metal crucifix (the smaller one below the other large iconic crucifix) is on the memorial table, before which candles are lit for the deceased and a memorial service would be held.

I hope this clarifies this matter.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

We have a three bar cross crucifix that sits on our tetrapod.

Andrew

There is most definitely a permanent Crucifix at St. George Patriarchal Church (EP). It is located at the top of the Iconostasis.
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If that is Saint Anthony of Padua, that is great! It shows that their spirituality is big enough to include a great sinner like him. I think that many Russians may also have a devotion to Saints Therese and Francis.

The late Father Lev Gillet, also known as "A Monk of the Eastern Church" said, "The whole teaching of the Latin Fathers may be found in the East, just as the whole teaching of the Greek Fathers may be found in the West. Rome has given St. Jerome to Palestine. The East has given Cassian to the West and holds in special veneration that Roman of the Romans, Pope Gregory the Great. St. Basil would have acknowledged St. Benedict of Nursia as his brother and heir. St. Macrina would have found her sister in St Scholastica. St. Alexis the "man of God," "the poor man under the stairs," has been succeeded by the wandering beggar, St. Benedict Labre. St. Nicolas would have felt as very near to him the burning charity of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Vincent de Paul. St. Seraphim of Sarov would have seen the desert blooming under Father Charles de Foucauld's feet, and would have called St. Th�r�se of Lisieux "my joy."

I believe that Western Christians should get to know Eastern saints, and Eastern Christians should get acquainted with Western saints. In this way, we will truly honor each other as fellow pilgrims striving for holiness.

Ray
(whose icon gallery includes saints of both East and West) www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

In addition to the ROCOR parish in Oxnard, there is also an OCA parish (Saint Herman's). Several years ago, I drove by this parish and was surprised to see an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe hanging to the side of the main doors!

As a Mexican-American, I was offended by such tactics to draw in Hispanics to the Orthodox Church, especially in light of Orthodox complaints about Catholics prosyletizing in Orthodox countries. Using the Orthodox line of argument, shouldn't Hispanics be Catholics? Hmmmm.

The image of OLG has been replaced with an icon of Saint Herman.

Without knowing the specific make-up of that parish's congregation, I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and disagree that such was so much a "tactic" as a reaching out to embrace the native spirituality of some of those who were worshipping there. Certainly, I've heard Juan Diego's tilma described as being in the nature of an icon not of human hands.

Using your logic, could not one say that "yes, Hispanics should be Catholics - but, wait, they should be Latin Catholics!"?. On that note, many of our Churches with significant (for us) presence in South America should be looking to provide pastoral care only to those emigres whose ancestry traces back to the historic homelands of our Churches. And to carry the analogy further - what, pray tell, is Father Serge doing in Dublin ?

Many years,

Neil

At the moment, Father Serge is indeed in Dublin, and writing this post. More generally, Father Serge is attempting to serve the Greek-Catholics who have moved here and the indigenous Irish who find our Church attractive.

I don't subscribe to that theory that different religions have different canonical territories - if that were the case, Christianity would be a dissident Palestinian sect.

On the other hand, there is such a thing as blatant proselytism. There's a large Hispanic-Episcopal parish in Southern California named "Our Lady of Guadalupe". There is also a Presbyterian church in New York city which advertises its Spanish service as "Misa en espanol"! A Presbyterian Mass - who'ld a thunk it?

Fr. Serge

What of icons of St. Christopher the Great Martyr? Usually he is depicted with Christ as a child on the saint's shoulder---would that be counted as 'holding'?

I can see your point; hwoever, Christopher (Khystofor) means "the bearer of Christ."
And all of us are called to be "bearers of Christ" of Christians.
Thus, the figure of Christ on the shoulder is symbolic.
The Mother of God (Theotokos) is depicted in icons with the Christ Child in her arms. There are many liturgical citations that refer to the Theotokos holding Christ in her arms, including citations that emphasis the paradox, that She held in her arms, He who holds the universe in His hands.
Jaroslav Pelikan points out that many of the images or symbols we find in iconography were first found in the liturical hymns of the church.
I don't think the tropars of any of the saints refer to a saint "holding" Christ in his arms.

It is not uncommon in Byzantine iconography to find private revelations to saints by Christ or the Mother of God. Let's take the example of Saint Peter of Alexandria where Christ appears to him standing on an altar. http://www.srpskoblago.org/Archives/Gracanica/exhibits/digital/s1-e1e4/s1-e1e4-10.html http://www.srpskoblago.org/Archives/Gracanica/exhibits/digital/s1-e1e4/s1-e1e4-9.html

Saint Seraphim of Sarov http://www.firebirdvideos.com/saintslives/seraphim3.jpg https://secure.oca.org/ocpc/ProdImages/large/icon-seraphim.jpg and Saint Sergius of Radonezh http://www.brenskegallery.com/icons_detail.php?id=231 are often depicted with the Mother of God appearing to them.

How is it possible to come up with a prototype for such a new icon? How could such images be painted or written that were never depicted before? Again the church examines and can accept or reject such an image. Within the western art tradition, such an image of Saint Anthony of Padua has been accepted. When no such prototype existed within the Eastern tradition, it is only natural to borrow an accepted image and render it in a Byzantine fashion. This is true of many Western style Madonnas have made their way into Slavic countries for veneration.

I believe that the depiction of Saint Anthony of Padua who is also called "Thaumaturgist" or "the Wonderworker" is based on his private vision, visitation or "theophany" if you will. As you can see from the above icons, such depictions of visions are nothing new and quite often appears in Byzantine iconography.

According to one internet source: "since the seventeenth century he (Anthony) was often been painted with the Infant Savior on his arm because of a late legend to the effect that once, when stopping with a friend, his host, glancing through a window, had a glimpse of him gazing with rapture on the Holy Child, whom he was holding in his arms. In the earlier portraits he usually carries a book, symbolic of his knowledge of the Bible, or a lily."

Another source says that, "He is said to have had a vision of the Infant Christ when preaching on the Incarnation."

"It was only after his death that the account of the heavenly visitation by the Child Jesus was told during the official process concerning his virtues and miracles for worthiness of sainthood. It was narrated by the man who witnessed the marvel in question; the Saint himself had never spoken of it. Saint Anthony was in the region of Limoges in France, and was offered hospitality, rest and silence by this businessman of the region, in his country manor. He was given a room apart, to permit him to pray in peace; but during the night his host looked toward his lighted window and saw in the brilliance a little Infant of marvelous beauty in the arms of the Saint, with His own around the Friar�s neck. The witness trembled at the sight, and in the morning Saint Anthony, to whom it had been revealed that his host had seen the visitation, called him and enjoined him not to tell it as long as he was alive. The town near Limoges where this occurred remains unknown; the original account of the inquiry does not name it, but says that the man in question narrated it, with tears, after Saint Anthony�s death."

I found this litany to him http://www.scborromeo.org/prayers/anthony8.htm . Many of the prayers remind me of the words of an akathist hymn of sorts. A short biography can be found here. http://www.companionsofstanthony.org/OurSainttitle.htm

I think that the original poster of this thread was quite surprised to see an icon of a post-schism western Saint not only in an Orthodox Church, but probably in the most conservative, anti-ecumenist jurisdiction. Bringing our attention to it challenges many our pre-conceived notions about popular devotion of holy men and women outside our ecclesiastical world.

I would like to invite Orthodox and Eastern Christians to read about Saint Anthony the Wonderworker of Padua, just like Catholic and Western Christians should definitely read the life of Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Let us continue to learn about each other with a holy and humble curiosity.

Ray
Iconographer

It looks like "Saint Anthony" has gone through a make-over!!!

Below is a photo from the panakhida for the repose of Bishop Alexander Mileant at Holy Trinity Church in Oxnard, CA on September 2005.

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If you look at the upper right hand corner, to the right of the crucifix, you will see the same image of a man holding the Child Jesus. but this time his clothing has changed!!

I plan to visit the church this weekend so I will let you all know which saint is depicted. Could it be Saint Christopher?

The mystery continues.
Stay tuned...

I've just come back from visiting the church.

The icon has been altered to now be that of Saint Christopher.

The face is the same, but the tonsure has been covered over and the hair has been lengthened to where the hood was. The Franciscan habit has been changed into a white garment with a reddish brown cloak. The Christ Child remains the same, standing on top of a book.

The icon may have been that of Saint Anthony of Padua or renamed to be Saint Francis of Assisi since he is venerated by some Orthodox Christians.

The fact that the icon of a Franciscan saint was originally painted in a ROCOR church is what I find surprising.

Genearally speaking, ROCOR has a negative view of Catholic saints.

I had the chance to gather some more infomration on this situation...

As it turns out, several years ago this particular parish did not yet have a full-time parish priest. A parishioner, potenitally full of convert zeal, had the misapprehension that his patron saint was this St. Anthony of Padua. He then commissioned the icon to be installed in his parish Church.

Then, when a new full time priest was assigned, he had to deal with this problem, since this St. Anthony is not a saint recognized by ROCOR. Eventually the icon was changed to St. Christopher the Great Martyr.

However, there is something of a scandal associated with this event. The iconographer has never been re-employed by the Oxnard parish for his grevious error.

Thanks for the info. It is good to have this mystery solved.
I would question whether this person really was an iconographer. According to Eastern Orthodox tradition, an iconographer �writes� an icon following the traditions established by the Church in specific canons or decrees passed by church councils and not his personal and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. A real iconographer would have checked his manual to see an example of the Orthodox St. Anthony.

"The divine service of iconographic representation has been received from the Holy Apostles, and for this reason it behooves both the priest and the iconographer to live in chastity or marriage according to the law. Just as the priest during the Liturgy by (saying) the divinely-instituted words brings into being the Body (and Blood of Christ) which we receive in Holy Communion for the forgiveness of sin. Similarly the icon painter, instead of words, describes and depicts the body (of Christ or a saint) and brings into life (figuratively) that which we venerate for the sake of our great love for the (heavenly) Originals.�
An Icon Painters Notebook: The Bolshakoy Edition. An Anthology of Source Materials. Trans. and Ed. Gregory Melnick. Torrance, CA: Oakwood Publications: 199, p. 20-21.

Yes, I suspect it was this lack of research that led to the iconographer 'no longer being commissioned' for work in that particular Temple.

May I ask what "ROCOR" is and why "ROCOR" isn't fond of Catholic saints? Moreover, why would anyone be surprised to find Catholic saints depicted in a Catholic Church?

Oh, but they are still in communion with Rome?

ROCOR has never been in communion with Rome.

Oh well.

What a slap to my face! St. Anthony is my name saint.

I have to admit, you lost me there. How is it a slap in your face? Why would Orthodox venerate a Catholic saint and vice versa? I wouldn't take it as an insult if Rome would not recognize St Alexeis Toth, or St. Czar Martyr Nikolai.

Alexandr

Glory to Jesus Christ!
I have looked at this thread and even participated in its discussion. I would like to ask the original poster, what was your intent for introducing it on the Byzantine Forum?

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

One of my interests is researching Catholic devotion to Orthodox saints (eg, Saint Sergius, Saint Seraphim, Saint John Maximovitch)and Orthodox devotion to Catholic saints (eg, Saint Therese "the Little Flower", Saint Francis of Assisi, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta).

Such cross-denominational veneration makes a significant ecumenical statement.

Considering ROCOR's stance on Catholic saints, I was surprised to see an icon of Saint Anthony of Padua included among the icons of Orthodox saints.

"Did ROCOR change its postion on holiness outside the Orthodox Church?" "Is there devotion to Saint Anthony among the Russian Orthodox?" "Did the pastor authorize the inclusion of the image?" These were some of the questions that came to mind.

I thought maybe someone on this forum could provide information.

Thankfully, ptsmythe was able to find the answers.

Ah yes, but the question remains: which St. Anthony. There are lots of Anthonies on the calendar.

I had thought that this church was Byzantine Catholic. Unfortunately, this isn't so.

I am aware. I've known Anthony of Padua since a very young age though.

What was the painting doing there anyhow? A priest's personal devotion?

I recognize St. Anthony of Padua, St. Catherine of Siena (my mother's saint), St. Alexis Toth and St. Nektarios Of Aegaena. This doesnt matter much since I'm not my own Church, does it?