www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we an impediment to reunion?

For a further discussion on the Pope in the Liturgy, including a quote from Fr Serge's paper, see: Pope of what?

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Dr. Eric,

I've assisted at Liturgies for RC's in university - and it was ALWAYS the case they found the frequent papal commemorations amusing and, as one person said, "strange, given that you are Eastern."

They also didn't like the many repetitions of "Lord have mercy" and some other aspects.

When I told this to our RC chaplain, a Spiritan Father who was a "liturgical expert in his own Rite" ( ), Fr Tannam simply smiled and said, "Alex, they wouldn't know liturgical beauty if it hit them in the face in broad daylight."

Or words to that effect . . .

As someone with monarchialist tendencies, I do appreciate the history and role of the Papacy, the tiara and other symbols.

They give me goose-pimples all over when I think about them . . .

Do you think I should confess these feelings?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I'm afraid I don't know you well enough to know whether you are pulling my leg or being serious. So I'll just say that, if you are being serious, I trust you have sources to back up this statement.

God bless,
Peter.

Alex?

Dr. Alex,
I for one LOVE the fact that there are so many Hospodi Pomyluys in the Liturgy, there are 40 aren't there?

You should confess your Monarchist tendencies since you live in the Queen's Realm of Canada. It might save your neck.

Remember St. Thomas More?

Also, remember my disant relative Bl. John Roche. 'Tis the Irish who shaped me Catholicism.

Dear Peter,

Sorry! I am busy marking exams! So far, my students have done me proud!

I've read comments from Orthodox hierachs to this effect on the website of the Moscow Patriarchate www.mospat.ru [mospat.ru]

There are pages there that deal with ecumenical issues, and, in addition, I've seen articles in English that relay this same message from Orthodox sources.

It would take me a while to pinpoint exact references - and I wish I had the time right now to do that.

Perhaps others here have seen those comments and could vouch for the fact that I'm telling the truth and am not blatantly lying?

I see your point, however.

IF the Orthodox Church is so "anti-uniate," what is it doing giving advice to Rome on the EC Churches autonomy et al. And what is the ROC doing criticizing Rome today for not keeping a tighter reign on the UGCC?

That is all true and what this all shows is a lack of consistency.

But I have definitely read articles on Orthodox websites that have in fact affirmed the need for greater autonomy of the EC Churches.

Cheers,

Alex

Dear Dr. Eric,

You are a relative of one of the Recusant Martyrs of Britain? How wonderful!

I have a listing of them all and sometimes read them all in a kind of "litany."

I visited Tyburn in London where the nuns pray 24 hours daily throughout the year on the spot where the "Tree of Tyburn" stood.

They were, and you are correct, quite loyal servants of the Crown, "but God's first."

In addition, it was Pope St Pius V that really made their situation nasty when he excommunicated Elizabeth I and this after the English Catholics begged him to leave well enough alone . . .

Interestingly enough, the Coptic Churches have 41 "Kirie Eleison" in their services.

The number "41" is a mystical number in their tradition representing the two extra strokes of the scourge they say Christ received - in effect, Christ received more lashes than what the worst criminal would have gotten - a maxium of 40 less one. So His enemies broke their own law to punish Him Who is Innocent.

There are other explanations of the 41 Lord have mercy's but that is the one I heard from a Coptic priest directly.

Cheers,

Alex

When we studied the Elizabethan period in history class and the 1570 Bull I was so happy. God bless Pope St Pius V. May the souls of the northern earls who revolted against the unbelieving Queen find rest in Heaven.

Dear Myles,

Would the English Catholics who urged Pius V NOT to issue that document share your sentiments?

Alex

They probably wouldnt but there as you know Dr Roman the feeling amongst the English Catholics was hardly uniform. Some actually held banquets when they heard the Spanish Armarda was coming and celebrated privately. Oh how their hopes were so sadly dashed...

One cannot blame St Pius V for the errors of the heretic Elizabeth. She should've answered Campion's Brag if she felt so confidently Protestant. The quietly, quietly attitude didnt get Catholicism anywhere elsewhere in Europe. Had the English Catholics rallied to the banners of the northern earls we may've been able to change the course history. I'm sure that once the war got under way the Catholic League in France and the Spaniards would've sent us money and weapons.

Sometimes, I tell ya, Europeans are far too 'reasonable'.

PS) Do you like the New Eu flag that I have as my avatar?

Lots of good comments! I have a Roman Catholic Father, and Russian Orthodox Mother. I guess as a comprimise,we we raised in the Byzantine Catholic Church. I have always hoped and prayed that the BCC could be a bridge to reunion of the churches.

Welcome to you KXR!

Dr. Alex,
I am not descended, well maybe I could be, from Blessed John Roche. My mother's maiden name was Roche, the Roches are from County Cork. They came over from Normandy in 1066 and were the local Lords of the area. (See, I have noble blood, I should be King!!! :p ) When Cromwell attacked Ireland, he and those who would later be called "Pilgrims" destroyed our Castles and killed our priests. Although some Roches became Protestants!

Back to the topic, if more Orthodox knew what the Eastern Catholics believed I think we would get closer to reunion.

Hello Dr. Eric!

I think most Orthodox know what most Byzantine Catholics profess, (although quite honestly I know a some cradle Byzantines whose faith is clearly right out of the Baltimore catechism). But I think we need to recognize the Orthodox have an inherent control that is very "native" to itself.

The Roman Catholic church has this external institution (we shall call the Vatican )
which says what can and cannot be done, who can commune whom, who may be bishop etc.

The Orthodox churches have 'developed' without such an institution, it is not that they separated from it ever, but they never actually had such a thing. So Orthodoxy always falls back on procedures derived from the ancient canons.

[1] Orthodoxy does not knowingly commune with heretics.

[2] Orthodoxy as a general rule excommunicates anyone who communes heretics, that is the enforcement. It is the only real recourse.

Eastern Catholicism (and particularly Byzantine Catholicism) may teach Orthodox theology, but it also maintains Latin theology as equivalent and therefore admits Roman Catholics to the chalice.

This alone will automatically be a problem that will not go away unless or until the Orthodox churches become convinced that Roman Catholicism is not in error. It really doesn't matter if the BCC teaches Truth, because of it's accomodation to RCC errors it cannot be truly Orthodox. The BCC teaches Truth and accomodates (or endorses) unTruth, according to this way of looking at it.

In other words (to use Catholic speak), the BCC incurs excommunication Lat� Sententi� from Orthodoxy.

+T+
Michael

Dear Myles,

I LOVE your new avatar .

But why couldn't you include an ICON!?

Certainly, the Recusant Catholic martyrs and the entire period would have occurred nomatter what happened at Rome.

I loved reading the Recusant literature - especially when the Catholics referred to Protestantism as something that was "nothing at all."

Their devotions are also telling, especially the popular 63-Hail Mary rosary of various types and the Rosary Confraternity in England that listed extra groups of decades for the 9 choirs of Angels, the twelve Apostles, the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, the 14 Stations of the Cross, the 5 sheddings of the Precious Blood of Christ etc. This impressed me so much that I still use the Rosary to do the Stations of the Cross on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Oh, sorry . . . I meant to say, "The prayer Rule of the Most Holy Theotokos that was delivered to an Eastern monk of the Thebaid in the 8th century . . ."

That wasn't very "Byzantine politically correct" of me, was it now?

Ciao!

Alex

Dear +Michael+,

I've met some Orthodox bishops and priests who, after a conversation, have told me that "you are Orthodox, Alex."

When I told them that I believe that the Pope of Rome is the first Hierarch in the entire Church with whom we should be in communion etc. they have told me, "Well, we believe that too. . ." And at that point, I'm all perplexed . . . :rolleyes:

And two have told me that if I'm ever in a church where they are celebrating the Divine Liturgy, that I have their permission to approach the chalice . . .

Not that I would, out of deference to what I know what Orthodoxy teaches.

But the pastoral, "economic" perspective of Orthodoxy has always impressed me.

Viva il Papa!

Alex