www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West On Rome and her 3 Major Errors

OH!

what a wonderful song!

Thank YOU.

-ray

Dear Anastasios you said:

"I think if we all give up our stolen goods then we actually will be able to help alleviate the us vs. them mentality."

I say:

The us vs. them mentality has nothing to do with the stolen goods. Let us thank God that they still exist in Rome and the many great churches in Europe. Had they been given back, they would not exist today. Nor would they have existed if they were to have gone to Thessalonika or any other city in that part of the world. God knew very well how to preserve them.

Zenovia

Dear Anastasios,

Well, in one sense it is good that those items are in the West as they would, by now, most assuredly have been in non-Christian hands, Orthodoxy being powerless to stop their plunder.

In addition, Russian Orthodoxy is certainly no slouch in the "plundering" business, having plundered the Ukrainian (and other) Churches in the past.

The West is at least trying to make amends.

The Russian Church feels that it was entitled.

And world Orthodoxy says nothing about it either.

Orthodoxy is part of the true Church of Christ.

But by remaining silent about this, it is committing sin.

Alex

Here's a challenge - Can someone please identify BY NAME the True Church of Christ? I asked my parish priest this question once, and he danced around the answer? Why? Why is it so hard for a truly Faithful Catholic priest to say it is the Holy Roman Catholic Church - where the Latin and Byzantine Rites make up It's lungs. (Yes, I admit,I've got myself in some pretty hot water witnessing to this Truth, but we're the Church Militant and should be prepared for spiritual battle. Ultimately, we're battling with Satan and him minions, right?) In our arsenal, we have ex cathedra/de fide statements, where we are assured that the Holy Ghost has protected these spoken Truths. It is not a matter of picking and chosing what we want to believe or willing to compromise. Truth is Truth. It is black and white. This is Cathlic Dogma my dear brothers and sisters. It is not to be debated or ignored. Christ never worried about political correctiveness. Neither did His Apostles.

I for one, damn that Balamand Statement to the deepest pits of Hell. It is an insult to refer to Ukrainian Catholics as Uniates and a 'problem.' Praise God, we as Catholics, have the True Faith and abide in Christ's fold. But so many are blind - hence, the blind leading the blind....

Correct me if my observation is wrong but certain posters on this forum, both Catholics and Orthodox, seem to abhor Catholic Dogma and It's fullness by your opinions and views. Regardless of our attitudes, the fact remains, that different branches of the Orthodox Church are not part of the True Church of Christ - i.e. The Catholic Church...we must pray and witness to the Orthodox's conversion....this is what Our Lady of Fatima commanded us to do...this is why she is often seen as weeping. Holy Scripture commands us to witness and call everyone to conversion. (This wishy-washy political correctness is merely false ecumenism.)

Maybe we're too busy preferring the respect of men over God - and again, only God knows the condition of our hearts...I assure you, mine is sincere and forgive me for not being lukewarm about this topic.

I am constantly amazed at the bravery of such holy men, like Andrew Sheptytsky who refused to become Orthodox in order to obtain freedom from imprisonment - how many of us would be willing to do this? Can you imagine how many times he's rolled in his grave every time a Ukrainian Catholic spat on Mother Church via apostasy, like subscribing to Orthodoxy (Capital 'O') or behaving like a weak Catholic apologetic? It's saddening...and scandalous.

There is only one gate and only one flock - the Catholic Church and It's Faithful. Christ confirms that we 'can not climb over elsewhere.'(St John Chapter Ten) If one believes otherwise or places himself 'elsewhere,' he/she is either invincibly ignorant or obstinate and not within Christ's sheepfold. Pretty risky stuff to be outside the Church and without Her protection, don't you think?

Please, for the sake of one's own salvation and the salvation of others, do not be fooled into believing or teaching that the Orthodox Church is part of the True Church - to believe in such an opinion, would be calling the Holy Ghost a liar...a sin that is not forgiveable. In essence, to be silent about this on my part, would be committing a sin of ommission.

Dear Lida,

Well, the Orthodox Church has valid sacraments and the Apostolic Faith.

Rome has NEVER denied that it is not the true Church (only separated).

Our Patriarch Lubomyr is on very good terms with the Orthodox - and he has even referred to our church as "Orthodox in Eucharistic Communion with Rome."

There is a negative side to the Union of Brest. It divided our Church and our people.

In doing so, it weakened us.

We should have, I believe, remained united in one Ruthenian Church at the time. We could have negotiated with different churches, but we should have remained together.

As it stands, our UGCC has its heroes.

But they are heroes not, in my view, because they remained true to Catholicism.

They are heroes because they remained true to their Ukrainian Catholic Church and people, come hell or high water.

Rome has NEVER been our friend. Never.

Not at Balamand, not before, not in 1596.

Rome tried an experiment at Brest that failed to produce what it wanted to produce - unity with Moscow.

Rome's view of our Church hasn't changed since that time, but it has become more overt.

That doesn't mean that our martyrs and confessors have lost their relevance.

To us, they will always remain relevant!

Alex

This is exactly how I feel too.. and not just because Rome says so.

Brad

Lida!

I think I need to step in here as administrator and to address some of what you have posted.

You wrote: �Here's a challenge - Can someone please identify BY NAME the True Church of Christ? I asked my parish priest this question once, and he danced around the answer? Why? Why is it so hard for a truly Faithful Catholic priest to say it is the Holy Roman Catholic Church - where the Latin and Byzantine Rites make up It's lungs.�

One simply cannot take a black and white approach to the Church. Rome doesn�t do this and neither should we. When Pope John Paul the Great said that �schism is too strong a word to describe the separation between Rome and Orthodoxy� he really meant it. The Catholic Church teaches that it alone has the fullness of the Gospel. Yet it also includes the Orthodox Church as Church. If you were to look at this from Pope John Paul the Great�s teachings the only thing lacking for communion is communion itself. To exclude the Orthodox as not part of the �True Church of Christ� is to reject Catholic Teaching and in effect separates one from the Church itself. What you posted on this issue is erroneous and simply not Catholic Teaching. If you�re going to say �truth is truth� then you need to get your truth correct and not invent things the Church does not teach.

Byzantine Catholics are not part of the Roman Catholic Church. They are one of 20+ different Catholic Churches that together make up the entire Catholic Church. The Chaldean, Maronite and other Catholic Churches are as valid as and equal to the Roman Catholic Church. Pope John Paul the Great and many others in the Church have taught extensively on this and I highly recommend spending some time with quality source material to learn the mind of the Church on this issue.

You wrote: �I for one, damn that Balamand Statement to the deepest pits of Hell. It is an insult to refer to Ukrainian Catholics as Uniates and a 'problem.' Praise God, we as Catholics, have the True Faith and abide in Christ's fold. But so many are blind - hence, the blind leading the blind....�

Pope John Paul the Great gave his blessing the Balamand Statement (even though it never became official). I am sorry to learn that you consider his position to be one from the �deepest pits of Hell�. You are free to disagree with him but I think it is unwise for you to consider his position as if from hell itself.

I agree that the use of the term "uniate" in that document is unfortunate.

You wrote: �Correct me if my observation is wrong but certain posters on this forum, both Catholics and Orthodox, seem to abhor Catholic Dogma and It's fullness by your opinions and views. Regardless of our attitudes, the fact remains, that different branches of the Orthodox Church are not part of the True Church of Christ - i.e. The Catholic Church...we must pray and witness to the Orthodox's conversion....this is what Our Lady of Fatima commanded us to do...this is why she is often seen as weeping. Holy Scripture commands us to witness and call everyone to conversion. (This wishy-washy political correctness is merely false ecumenism.)�

While each poster can speak for himself it seems to me that they simply disagree with your presentation of Catholic Dogma. Quite a bit of what you are presenting as Catholic dogma doesn�t even qualify as legitimate opinion within Catholicism.

Again, I suggest that you adhere to the Catholic Teaching on who constitutes the Catholic Church. The Church may consider the membership of the Orthodox Church to be �imperfect� but it is still a real and legitimate member. You may disagree with the Church on this and that is your right. But I must ask you not present your personal views as Catholic Teaching.

As to Fatima, remember that there is no Catholic mandate to accept those apparitions as true. One may reject them completely and remain a good Catholic.

You wrote: �Please, for the sake of one's own salvation and the salvation of others, do not be fooled into believing or teaching that the Orthodox Church is part of the True Church - to believe in such an opinion, would be calling the Holy Ghost a liar...a sin that is not forgiveable. In essence, to be silent about this on my part, would be committing a sin of ommission.�

What you wrote is an incorrect presentation of Catholic theology. I highly recommend learning what the Catholic Church actually teaches on this topic.

Lida, at this point I must ask you to start sourcing all of your claims and providing the context for those sources. Your accusation that people who believe the Catholic Church�s teaching that the Orthodox are members of the Catholic Church (although �imperfectly�) are liars means that you are calling Pope John Paul the Great and almost all Catholic liars. Those types of posts will only accomplish being ignored or banned.

Prayerfully,

Admin

Dear Administrator,

You must have SOME Ukrainian in your background, you always tell it like it is!

Nighty-night!

Alex

Thank you for granting me permission to reiterate True Catholic Teachings by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. I see it is a necessary reguirement, lest one be banned, I guess...so here it goes....


The Catholic Church teaches:

1. 'To be Christian one must believe in the Papacy.' Pope Pius VI 1786
2. 'The life of the Spririt follows not the amputated member.' Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum 1896
3. 'He who eats the Lamb outside the Church is unholy.' Pope Gregory XVI - papal encyclical
4. 'Men are saved only in the Catholic religion.' Pope Gregory XVI - Summa Lugiter Studio 1832
5. 'Whoever is separated from the Church "holds not the Faith of the Father and the Son.' Pope Leo XIII - in Satis Cognituim 1896
6. 'We commit a crime when we compromise revealed Truth.' Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos 1928
7. 'Ecumenism distorts the true idea of religion adn thus rejects it.' Pope Pius XI - Mortalium Animos 1928
8. 'Heretics try to deal with Us (the Magisterium of the Catholic Church) as "Equals with an Equal."\' Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos
9. 'The Church is "indivisible by nature," though heretics try to divide it into parts.' Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum
10. 'Avoid all friendship with those who persecute the Church.' Pope Leo XIII in Custodi Di Quella Fede 1892
11. 'Outside the Catholic Church, there is no true worship of God.' Pope Gregory XVI in Summo lugiter Studio 1832
12. 'If they long for unity, let them enter the Church.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
13. 'Where diversity is, unity if broken.' Pope Pius XI in Casti Connubii 1930
14. 'The foundation of charity is the pure Catholic Faith.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
15. 'We can build only on the foundation of the Catholic Faith.' Pope Clement V - Lateran Council I 1123
16. 'Kinship is possible only between Catholics.' St Pius X in Our Appostolic Mandate 1910
17. 'Universal solidarity without Catholicism is impossible.' St Pius X Our Apostolic Mandate
18. 'The only world-view is a universal Catholic civilization.' St Pius X in Our Apostolic Mandate
19. 'Outside the Catholic Church, the truth cannot be found.' Pope Gregory XVI in Singulari nos affercerant gaudio 1834
20, 'True freedom can only be found in the Catholic Church.' Pope Clement V in Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils
21. 'The Catholic Church condemns all contrary opinions.' Pope Eugene IV Council of Florence 1441
22. 'A missionary's single objective is to deliver non-Catholics from their false beliefs.' Pope Benedict XVI The Papal Encyclicals
23. 'Philosophy cannot deviate from the Catholic Faith.' Pope Leo X Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils
24. 'All collaboration with non-Catholics is forbidden.' Pope Pius XI Decree of the Holy Office 1927
25. 'Whoever has not Catholicism, has not the Lord.' Pope Pelagius II epistle Quod ad delictionem to schismatic bishops of Istria, 585
26. 'Catholics repudiate and condemn the faith of heretics.' Pope Martin V letter Eius exemplo 1208
27. 'Ecumenism can meet with no kind of approval among Catholics.' Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos
28. 'The Catholic Church is a "perfect" means of salvation.' Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam 1302
29. 'Outside the Church there is no hope for salvation.' Pope Pius IX in Syllabus of Collection of Modern Errors 1864
30. 'Doctrine was not handed down to be perfected.' Pope Pius IX in Vatican Council I 1870
31. 'The one true religion is the Catholic Church.' Pope Pius VIII in The Papal Encyclicals
32. 'A universal family is attainable only in Catholicism.' Pope St Pius X in Our Apostolic Mandate
33. 'It is a grave offense not to exterminate heresy.' Pope Clement V in Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils
34.' To foster ecumenism is to reject the true religion.' Pope Pius XI in MOrtalium Animos
35. 'Schismatics sacriligiously administer the sacraments.' Pope Leo XIII decreed in Eximan Nos Laititial
36. 'God calls all to Catholic unity.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
37. 'The Magisterium is free from all error.' Pope Leo XIII Satis Cognitum
38. 'Schismatics or the sons of damnation.' Pope Leo X in Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils
39. 'Schismatics reject Christ by denying the Immaculate Conception.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
40. 'Outside the Church there are no Christian martyrs.' Pope Pelagius II on the Necessity on Union with the Church 585
41. 'Ecumenism abandons the religion revealed by God.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
42. 'Catholics must anathematize all heretics.' Pope St Martin I in The Lateran Council 649
43. 'Heretics are completely separated from the Body of Christ.' Pope Eugene IV in Council of Florence 1442 - Cantata Domino
44. 'Without the Catholic Faith no one is ever justified.' Pope Paul III in Council of Trent 1546
45. 'Only Catholics can be considered Christians.' Pope Pius VI in brief Super soliditate 1786
46. 'Heretics offend God and scandalize the Church.' Pope Martin V in Lateran Council IV 1215
47. 'The Church has no blemish or wrinkle.' Pope Hadrian I in Council of Ephesus, 431 48.
48. 'OUtside the Church there is no salvation nor remission of sins.' Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam, 1302 on Unity and Pwer of the CHurch
49. 'Outside the Church there exists a gospel of the Devil.' Pope Leo XII the Papal Encyclicals
50. 'Those who reject the Faith ore "foreign to the Catholic Church."' Pope Vigilius in Council of Ephesus, 431
51. 'Heretics corrupt the true expression of the Holy Ghost.' Pope St Celestine I in the Council of Rome, 383
52. 'Non-Catholic worship is a disgrace and is forbidden.' POpe Clement V in Council of Sens 1141
53. 'He who rejects the papacy is outside the Church.' Pope Clement VI in letter Super quibusdam 1351
54. 'The Catholic CHurch has one fold and one shepherd.' Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
55. 'No man can be saved outside the Catholic Church.' Pope Clement VI on the primacy of the roman pontiff in letter, Super QUibusdam, 1351
56. 'The Cathlic CHurch IS the union of all Christians.' POpe Pius XI in Mortalium Animos
57. 'Only Catholics worship God.' POpe Gregory XVI in Summa lugiter Studio 1832
58. 'Heretics are the gates of Hell.' Pope Vigilius in Decrees of the Ecumenical COuncils
59. 'Whosoever is outside the Catholic Church is not our brother.' POpe Leo XII in Papal Encyclicals
60. 'All heretics are outside Catholic Communion and alien to the Church.' Pope Leo XIII in Satus cognitum
61. 'The Roman Catholic Church alone is Catholic.' Pope Clement VI in Super Quibusdam, 1351
62. 'The Pope alone can define with the Magisterium.' Pope Clement V in Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils
63. 'The POpe alonse possesses supreme authority.' POpe Leo XIII in Satis cognitum on Unity of the Church
64. 'Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress.' Pope Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum

Since I don't agree with alot of these...guess I'm outside the Church...and in deep...

This is a example of good old traditional rhetoric...how sad...

james

Dear Lida:

I am just surprised that you conveniently stopped your list of papal pronouncements, short of continuing with the most recent "Orientale Lumen," "Ut Unum Sint," and "Dominus Iesus!"

If you have the time, please go over them!

Amado

Dear Lida

after your very busy day today I would advise that a good long rest is necessary.

Dear Lida:

And Jakub, Anhelyna, Memo, Paul, et al., and I are supposed to be the papalists here!

Are you sure you are Ukrainian Catholic?

Paging Dr. Alex Roman! You got more work to do!

Amado

Dear Lida,

Interesting, but what's your point?

Well, that's around 5 million Ukrainians who really aren't Catholic, including you, IIRC. Actually, this is good news! I'm sure you'll be thanked by both the RCC and Orthodoxy for removing the Uniate problem and boosting their respective memberships. Slava! Slava! Slava!

Dear Admin:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't one become a heretic if they deny even one ounce of Catholic Dogma, like the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, purgatory,...and doesn't one become schismatic when they deny the Primacy of the Pope???

In a nutshell, True Catholic Teaching in proven with the following EX CATHEDRA statement by Pope Eugene IV in the Council of Florence:

"It believes, professes and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, alsmgiving and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever alsmgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

So, as faithful Catholics, if we truly loved one who is an Orthodox, wouldn't we charitably admonish, correct and teach them properly?

Remember, even the Magisterium teaches infallibly in 'Bull Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio,' by Pope Paul IV on February 15, 1559 not to give blind obedience to even "some bishop, even conducting himself as an archbishop or patriarch or already cardinal of the Roman Church, even as shown a legate or EVEN A ROMAN PONTIFF (if he)had deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen away into some heresy,.... are deprived of every dignity, honor, title, authority, function and power..."

I offer these posts in the spirit that they were written, with complete charity in mind. And too, you requested that I provide the necessary documentation backing my Catholic Faith with authentic Catholic Teachings. Perhaps it is you who should provide ex cathedra statements backing your opinions/statements.

As far as I'm concerned, I think I provided enough information that states that one can not be both a member of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church...you're either in one or the other ...heretics and schismatics are outside the True Church, unless they repent and convert...as you can see now, my previous post was not some haphazard, overzealous and personal opinion. Your 'beef' is with my Mother Church...which by the way, does not have Sisters...

And that's all I have to say about that...