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Hi everyone,

I had a question about the crown traditionally worn by the Coptic Pope of Alexandria.

As I understand it, the wearing of the imperial type crown by our Byzantine Bishops comes from the time when they traditionally began to take over civil functions, after the fall of the Empire.

My question is, where did this tradition come from in the Coptic Church? As a guess, I'm thinking it may have been borrowed from the Byzantine Churches, but does anyone happen to know for sure?

Also, from all the pictures I've seen, it seems that wearing the crown is reserved for the Coptic Pope only, and not the Coptic bishops. Am I wrong on this one?

Anyway, thanks alot. I'd be really glad if someone could enlighten me!

In Christ,
Mike (poor sinner)

Mike,

Actually Coptic use of the Mitre predates that of the Byzantines. St. Cyril was granted its use by Pope St. Celestine I when he represented him at the Council of Ephesus. It was gradually granted by him to his bishops.

Coptic bishops do use the mitre, however, only in their own eparchy and never when the Patriarch is present. At these times they replace it with an amice-like hood similar to the masnaphtho of the Syrians.

As far as the mitre in the Byzantine tradition, it was not used until the fall of Constantinople. It was granted to the patriarch since he was now civil head of the Greek millet, as well as patriarch. It was not granted to all bishops until the 18th century. Interestingly, one of the grievances of the Greeks at Florence was the Latin use of the mitre. The Greeks boasted of their humility in celebrating the liturgy with uncovered heads. Guess we gave that boast up.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Lance,

I guess that makes the Bishops' crowns a Latinization. Anyone for telling them to lose the headgear? Let's get back to that Old Time Religion!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear John,

Actually, this points more to our penchant of imposing Byzantinizations rather than any kind of Latinization!

The Copts and Ethiopians were heavily influenced by the Judaism of the early Church (and in Ethiopia's case, its own Judaism). To pray with covered head was and is very important to the Alexandrian Church and Rite.

The Celts themselves borrowed from the Copts and introduced Crowns into their Church and Rite as well, as the Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy and Missal indicate.

The use of Crowns is something that meshes well with the idea of Christians being of the "Royal Priesthood," and "Priests, Prophets and Kings."

A crowning achievement all around, would you not say ?

Alex

Dear Lance,

Thanks for the info on this one, which I was really curious about!

God bless you in your studies for the diaconate, as well!

In Christ,
Mike (poor sinner)

Alex,

Yes, the use of crowns is important, especially for those getting married. In fact, we Byzantines call it the "Crowning in Marriage" or just "Crowning." We even top our Royal Doors with crowns!


Lance,

Are you suggesting our bishops never take off their crowns at the liturgy, especially at the Anaphora?


Joe


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 06-07-2001).]

Dear Joe,

Sometimes I think that crowning ceremony went to my beloved wife's head . . .

Alex

Joe,

I am confused. The Greeks boasted their humility by having uncovered heads at the Liturgy as opposed to the haughtiness of the mitre wearing Latins.

I don't think our bishops should stop wearing mitres. I just thought it ironic that we adopted a practice we thought was Latin arrogance.

Is that what you meant?

In Christ,
Lance

The Bishops of the Coptic Orthodox Church all wear their "mitres" I think you call them (I'm used to the Arabic ) and they wear them in front of the Pope, the Pope Himself has the same mitre as them. The Bishops wear their crowns during the Liturgy, but most of them wear their normal mitre during the Liturgy. Of course, from the beginning of the Liturgy of the word until the very end of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, they do not wear the crown or mitre.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

Our dear Coptic Friend,

Welcome, Selam!

It is always best when a representative of the Church we are talking about can speak of on behalf of its own traditions!

Ultimately, as one Coptic priest in Jerusalem told me, the crown or mitre signifies the "Royal Priesthood" of our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, something in which all Christians share and this is the theological basis for its introduction.

We look forward to learning about the Holy Coptic Church and her traditions from you!

Tenoo oasht emmok o piekhristos new pekyot en aghathos nem pi epneuma ethowab je akee ak soati emmon nai nan!

Alex

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

That brings up the issue of the white cloth I have seen some Copts wear during religious services. What is the tradition behind that if you please? Also, Jews and Muslims wear headcovings both in and out of religious services, why don't Chrsitians also adopt that practice or do some and others don't in some parts of the world? Please enlighten.

Dmitri

>Welcome, Selam!

"Allay sallemek!"

Thanks a lot for the warm welcome !

>Tenoo oasht emmok o piekhristos new pekyot en >aghathos nem pi epneuma ethowab je akee ak soati >emmon nai nan!

Khen omethmi, Amen! (in truth, Amen!)

My real name is Mina, but I use the pseudoname "Wak-Wak" as I have been called for years by friends and family - even my priest's wife (my priest has yet to call me that ).

Dmitri, are you asking about the white cloths that the priest wears, or that the women wear?

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

The priest. I was also under the impression that laymen wear them as well, but I may be mistaken.

Dmitri

Dear Mina, our Coptic Brother,

So you are named for the famous St Mina of Egypt?

I once read that all the Coptic Popes of Egypt have been inscribed into the calendar of Saints - is this true?

Also, is Pope Cyrillos VI a saint already? Is his veneration public in any way?

Alex

CIX!

Then again of course, is the Armenian practice of having all priests wear Byzantine-style mitres, and having their bishops wear Latin-style mitres...

I'm wondering if I can become a Mitred Reader...

*GRIN*

Just my two cents!

Edward

CHB!

I think they also have mitred protodeacons...

Mitred readers just might be the next step!

-Dave

Lak Mar Mina, ya ahlan!

There is a question I have wanted to ask of an Egyptian Copt.

The sense of Coptic national identity is strong, nushkur Allah, despite the loss of Coptic as a spoken language (though Syriac is thankfully still spoken in Iraq and some areas of Syria). I would like to inquire as to how much of the Coptic mother tongue (the Fushah of it, so to speak) the average Copt understands. To what extent does he study it in the context of church life?

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Samer,

So you think that an unwillingness to learn their language is a "Copt-out?"

I'll get back to work ...

Alex

Ya marhaba, I have to go to Egypt, I'll be back in a month - but Coptic is not as dead as you think Samer ya7'ooya!

God bless you all, I'll write back when I return, and I'm sorry about that. :0)

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha

Yes, Pope Kyrillos VI is officially a Saint of the Coptic Orthodox Church with public veneration.

Check out this very interesting web site about this beautiful and holy man.

http://www.kyrillos.com/

The monks who posted the web site will also send you free booklets in the mail from Egypt. (English and Arabic.)

With Best Wishes to All!

Dear Stefan-Ivan,

Yes, I've seen that website which is truly beautiful and which calls Kyrillos "Saint."

However, as two Coptic priests have told me, he is not yet officially canonized, even though everyone does call him "Saint."

They have to wait fifty years after his death before enrolling him in the calendar, apparently.

But we can certainly venerate St Kyrillos privately as the great Saint and Miracle-Worker he is.

St Kyrillos of Alexandria, pray unto God for us!

Alex

I am about to attend my FIRST Coptic Vespers this Saturday. I will tell what I think.

I will have to get some more information about this but my uncle who was the head of the theology department at Boston University for many years was good friends with Bishop Samuel. Bishop Samuel was the Coptic Bishop who was assassinated with El-Sadat (President of Egypt). I am presently involved with a Coptic Online forum for sometime now. It appears to me that they never really adapted the (1 nature of Christ) heresy that they were accused of in the past. I hope they will be re-united with Orthdoxy and the Catholic church soon!

Interesting site is http://www.copts.com

as well as http://www.copticchurch.net

There you will find there Apostolic succession from St. Mark to the shoe maker all the way to the present Pope. They also have the BEST website with short movies about the infant Jesus and his path through Egypt. Wonderful stories about springs that He (Jesus) made come up from the ground that are still there today. I will have to find the link and post if you.

Yours in Theotokos!

Dear Ray,

Yes, you are right and the whole thing about the "One Nature" controversy was a gigantic misunderstanding.

I spoke with a Coptic priest who visited the Martyrs' Shrine in Midland a few weeks ago and he described to me how the Copts understand the Person of Christ.

It was clear to me that he understands the union of Christ's Two Natures in EXACTLY the same way as we do, but the issue of language does complicate things.

And it seemed to me that, for him, "Nature" was synonymous with "Person."

So the separation go the Egyptian Church was really a "Copt out" would you say?

Alex

Dear Samer, as you said, the sense of Coptic identity is very strong, and there has been quite a revival of it in this last fifty years, and particularly during these last two decades (Pope Shenouda has much to do with that, God keep him on his throne for many years and peaceful times). It's worth noting that the Syrian tongue still exists - but Syrians/Antiochians - to my knowledge did not have their tongues cut out for speaking their tongue. Copts did have that penalty, and the language was used only Liturgically until Pope Cyril (Kyrollos) IV revived it in the 19 century (he was quite a reformer and one of our most outstanding Patriarchs - and not nearly celebrated enough). Until this day, many "Fellaheen" (the farmers) speak Coptic fluently - and they even harvest according to our calendar only. In churches we are taught the language if the means are available, and there are still people that can speak it fluently - although the large majority do not. Our Bishop of Mallawi teaches the youth Coptic and they speak it at the university (which annoys their Muslim peers - but that's why the Muslims wouldn't let us use the language in the first place ). The majority of Copts instructed in the language can at the very least read it, a step up is being able to really know the Liturgical Coptic - and when you're at that stage it's really easy. Coptic is a very simple language, (thankfully!).

...and about Mina, yeah, I was named after both St. Mina and another person named after him that my parents loved and hoped I'd turn out like... I didn't. lol

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

Yes, all the Popes are recorded in the calendar of Saints - if they had problems they're recorded too.

Re: Pope Cyril VI, as someone wrote, he's not officially a Saint, but most Copts call him that already since they're so sure! We have quite a few of these "modern Saints" that haven't been canonized, and we have many living Saints that are absolutely amazing.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
wak-wak
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Yes, I positively love your "Veiled Bishop Saint."

Could you explain about St Samaan the Tanner and why there are three extra days tacked onto the Coptic Nativity Fast having to do with him?

Does your Church observe the Fast of Nineveh and when does this fall?

Alex

St. Samaan (Simon) the tanner was a very innocent layperson - he was a shoemaker by profession. He was so innocent, to the point that he took literally the instructions of Christ that if his eye offends him he should pluck it out (one of his eyes offended him when he saw a beautiful woman walk by - I won't go graphic)... The local priests and the Bishop of course, explained to him why he did not have to do that. Anyway, an advisor to the ruler of Egypt at that time went to the ruler and told him that "the Christians have a verse in their Bible that says if they have faith as small as a mustard seed they can tell a mountain to move, and it will move. If they are right, they should prove it." So the governor agreed, and went to Pope Abraam Ibn Zara'a and asked him if that verse existed, he was told that it did. So the ruler asked Pope Abraam to kindly move the mountain. So Pope Abraam asked for three days, and during those three days the whole entire church fasted and prayed. Pope Abraam would cry and cry and ask God what he should do, until the Holy Virgin Mary the Theotokos appeared to him, and told him that Samaan would be the one at whose hands the miracle would be done (the church in which she appeared is one of the oldest churches, and can still be visited in Old Cairo). They brought Simon, and on the third day, they all gathered at the mountain, thousands of Copts and Muslims, and of course the ruler. The Pope stood at the front, and behind him was St. Samaan, who was so humble and did not want anyone to know that he was doing anything. The congregation started chanting Kyrie eleison the way they do in the Liturgy, and each time they said it, St. Samaan did the sign of the cross, and the mountain would move higher and higher. Tradition has it that it went high enough that you could see the sun underneath it. Nonetheless, you need only look at the mountain today to know it moved... As for the ruler, according to Coptic tradition, he became a Christian, according to Islamic tradition, he became insane and roamed the country until he died. For that miracle we add 3 days to the forty days of Advent.

We also observe the fast of Nineveh because of a Syrian Patriarch that we had. He said that he would fast the extra week of Lent that we fast, if we fast the three days of Nineveh. Copts love to the fast, so it was a done deal. The fast of Nineveh is the Monday-Wednesday exactly two weeks before Great Lent.

In general, teh Copts have five official fasts, plus the Wednesday and Friday of every week (except for the Holy Fifty Days). We fast whenever we are in trouble as well - for example, when the massacre of Al-Kosheh happened a few years ago, all the churches in Canada fasted for three days.

Alex, I see you are in Toronto, I wonder if you went to see Pope Shenouda on the weekend when he was there...

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!

I think the question about our mitred priest was somewhere in this section...

Anyway, the Coptic priests are mitred during the Liturgy because it is seen as part of the priestly uniform - just as Aaron the Priest was instructed to have a mitre as well.

The mitre is taken off traditionally during the reading of Scripture, but I do not know the origin of this tradition.

As per discussion about the two natures, I believe that Alex pointed out that there seems to be confusion about the words "person" and "nature"...when discussing this issue with a Greek Orthodox correspondent, it became increasingly apparent that the Copts talk about "natures" as the "WHO", as Alex pointed out...but the EO and RC seem to be speaking of the "HOW" (hahaha, difference in placement of letter - a common theme in historical misunderstandings)...

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Mina/Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

I missed that Papal Visit!

FYI, I observe the extra three day Advent fast and the Fast of Nineveh.

I once did a bible presentation in high school on St Jonah and the Ninevites.

After explaining Jonah's wailing under the tree, I said, "He reminds me of the fellow at the Wailing Wall at Jerusalem who kept crying, 'I wanna go where my people are! I wanna go where my people are!'"

A man came by and retorted, "You are already in Israel! Where are your people?"

"In Miami Beach!" came the reply . . .

The teacher said that was the best analysis of the Book of Jonah he had ever heard . . .

Alex

Talking about Coptic crowns...the Greek Orthodox patriarch of Alexandria wears something quite similar to a imperial crown or papal tiara (he is also "pope" after all!) and a second stole "epitrachilion" over the pontificial "sakkos". In the Armenian Church priest also wear crowns as well as the two arch-deacons at the pontificial Divine Liturgy when (if I am not wrong) there are more than 6 deacons serving at the altar.

Dear Mina,

You brought things to my knowledge that which I wasn't aware of previously. I doubted much that the language existed in any form apart from the liturgical. But that its existance as a spoken tongue to whatever extent is due to a revival rather than an unbroken continuation from the days of Christian Egypt is remarkable.

Have you seen the musalsal, "khalatee safiy'ya wad'dair"? (What did you think of it?) Pity the farmers weren't bombarding the monastery's walls with Coptic chattering. It seems they decided to omit certain details in production. At least they were faithful to the Arabic dialect of those regions. It is rare when you see an Egyptian employ the "j" rather than the "g". Mush kida?

As for the Syriani, well, it gradually disappeared from areas as all other pre-fateh Middle Eastern languages did (the Lebanese Syriacs and Maronites, I believe held onto it longer), but still is spoken in certain areas in an uninterrupted continuation (no restorations). Unfortunately, these languages are dying with urbanization. They survive in villages like Ma'loula, but emmigration to the cities is contributing to their impending doom and extinction.

The miracle of the mountain you wrote of: what year or century did this take place, and does the mountain have a name?

In IC XC
Samer

Shlomo Samer,
You state that

I am happy to tell you that the death of the Suryoyo language is greatly exaggerated. Many members of the Maronite Church are now learning Syriac. Further, there are a number of programs here in North America that offer training in the Syriac language. As a matter of fact, Toronto where I live is hosting a Syriac Symposium this month. Here are the details.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

*************************************************
CCCS Symposium II-The Role of the Syriac People in the Translation Movement during the Abbassid Period

Saturday Nov. 23, 2002
University of Toronto: Koffler Institute of Pharmacy Management, 569 Spadina Ave., Auditorium (Room 108)
Regular-$10, Student/Senior-$5, Free for CSSS Members

The Canadian Society for Syriac Studies
Dept. of Near and Mid. East. Civilizations
4 Bancroft Ave.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 1C1
Tel.-416-978-3184, Fax-416-978-3305,

http://www.scripta-antiqua.org

10:10-10:40 Revisting the Syriac Role the Transmission of Greek Science into Arabic
Prof. George Saliba, New York

10:40-11:10 Syriac Translators of Greek Philosophy in Abbasid Times: Motives and Background
Dr. John Watt, Cardiff

11:10-11:40 The School of Translation of Yahia ibn 'Adi and its role in Transmitting Greek Philosophy and Science
Prof. S.H. Griffith, Washington, D.C.

12:10-12:40 Syriac Translation Techniques in the Abbasid Period and It's Background
Dr. Sebastian Brock, Oxford

12:40-13:10 The Translation Movement In It's Early Abbasid Context
Dr. Lawrence Conrad, Hamburg

13:10-13:40 The Contribution of the Christians in the Transmission of the Greek Heritage During the Abbasid Period
Prof. Samir Khalil Samir, Beirut

Hala feek ya Jean,

I'm glad to hear about it, but as I'm sure you've understood, I am speaking of the vernacular dialect and tongue (not the liturgical "Fushah" Syriani which greatly differs from it) being spoken without interruption in communities, which are of course to be found in villages. I have yet to meet a Libn"ii"ni ;-) who could carry on a conversation in Syriani aside from monks. Are you Lebanese yourself, khay'yee?

Even if people are learning Syriani in the schools, it isn't exactly identical to listening to the spontaneous Aramaic spoken by Ma'loula villagers, born and bred on the language.

Still, I am happy to see that it is being taught and that in some way keeps it afloat.

I will contend I had the pleasure of meeting in Jordan an Iraqi (hailing from a Syriac church tradition, it seemed) in his old age at the Melkite parish. I started talking with him, and he was telling me with nary a pause of how he had taken it up to himself to learn the language, and started tracing Syriac letters on the church wall, trying to demonstrate its simliarity with Arabic.

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Samer,

Sorry, I come here every once in awhile and didn't see your response!

Yes, it's survival, noshkor Rabbena is truly a miracle. For centuries it was spoken during the LIturgies in hush-hush if at all. As such, there are two dialects of Coptic - Sahidic and Bohairic. If I'm not confused right now, Bohairic is the original, Sahidic is the revived version from Pope Cyril IV.

I haven't seen that musalsal, actually. In Egypt there are certain regions in Upper Egypt, mostly rural areas, in which the "J" is used. Where I come from, for example, you'll find an equal split. One of our Bishops in Mallawi (Upper Egypt) taught huge numbers of youth Coptic to the degree where they could conversed very naturally using it. The Muslims at their universities were less than pleased.

The mountain is appropriately named (by both the Muslims and the Copts), "Mokattam" - the broken mountain. This took place under Pope Abraam (who was actually Syrian). The miracle took place in 979 A.D. Pope Abraam sat on the throne of St. Mark from 975-979 A.D.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

I forgot to mention, some of the rural communities in Egypt, the "fellaheen" also managed to keep the language, and still harvest according to the Coptic calendar!

Dear Friends,

I wanted to say that this is all "Greek" to me, but . . .

Alex

Alex, Alex, Alex...tssk tssk. And I thought you were our honorary Oriental.

Not "GREEK" to you... COPTIC to you!

Peace and grace.
Agape,
fortunatus
amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina,

Yes, that's why I said, "But . . ."

I knew I couldn't in this concerted Coptic context!

Alex

Ahh...i'm having trouble reading. I also misread Sam's statement - he was saying exactly as what I was correcting it to say! Sorry ya akhwatee! Akhtet haloolee! (Sorry my brothers, I have sinned absolve me!)

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

Dear Mina the Forgiven,

Speaking of which, what does Confession "look like" in the Coptic tradition?

Alex

Confession in our church is very intimate. It usually takes place in the church itself or in the priest's office. We have no screen barriers or anything like that. Usually the person sits beside the priest (some kneel for their whole confession while sitting next to the priest). Then the person goes through their sins (many people have the practice of writing them down when they do them, so as not to forget them). Sins are usually divided up into categories: Sins against God, sins against my neigbours - or going by each of the Ten Commandments is helpful (since it automatically divides them up). The priest listens attentively, may pause to advise, scold, comment, request more information etc... Often the priest will converse with the person about their spiritual progress, with specific sins that he has noticed the person becoming attached to...also, if one has questions to be answered, maritaly family problems etc..or wants general advice about things...the person can ask the priest or "complain" during this time. I've noticed that our priests in the lands of immigration aren't just priests, the culture shock for the older congregation and the gap between soem youth and thier parents has forced the priest into a type of Rennaissance Man. It doesn't surprise me that virtually all of our priests are highly educated with university degrees.

Anyway, after that is over, the confessor is supposed to kneel in front of the priest for the Absolution (this is done so much less here in the West, I think). THe confessor should pray Psalm 51 and another prayer before the absolution, the other prayer is, Loose, remit and forgive us, O God, our inquities - which we have committed willingly and which we have committed unwillingly; which we have committed knowingly and which we have committed unknowingly. The hidden and the manifest, O Lord, remit unto us." After the Absolution the Lord's prayer is said, and the confessor kisses the cross and hand of the priest and exits.

I forgot to add: we are to have only ONE father of confession, not confess to just any priest. If you change your father of confession, it is advised that you tell your previous old father of confession and explain to him why! I only know of one person who did this.

Sorry for rambling!

Peace and grace.
agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!

I think that's a very beautiful way to confess!

When explaining confession, Latin Catholics often say that, besides its sacramental necessity, it increases our humility, but I've always thought, "What's so humbling when there's a screen between you?" I think this way expresses the humility of the confessor much more efficiently.

Personally, at my first confession, even if I choose to be Latin Catholic, I would rather it be face-to-face. G-d knows I need the lesson in humility because sometimes I can't help but feel I'm the best thing since sliced bread.

ChristTeen287

Shepehmot! (thank you!)

Indeed, it is very humbling - especially adding to it the fact that we confess to just one priest. Everytime my Spiritual Father asks me to do something, or take on a specific service, I always wonder, "How can he talk to me after hearing the things I say? How can he put me in this service when he knows that I'm full of myself? Does he know what he is doing?" And that ends up building a strong relationship of love. My father of confession is the first person I contact in any situation, good or bad, he 'raised me', so to speak, in a lot of ways.

Peace and grace.
Agape,
Fortunatus
Amen, maranatha!