www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Tom Friedman Op-Ed in today's NYT

Nur!

Well..it has been an interesting journey!

I certainly have learned a great deal.

It is interesting to note that Christians are as onesided and bigoted and lacking in the charity and the nonviolence of Christ as you would have us believe we are. . Sorry, that misinformation will not work, especially for those of us who are Slavic Muslims and are the recent recipients of the barbarity of Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

All students of history are well aware of the fact that those countries of Europe which have been the most rooted in Christianity have been the most brutal and warlike. These are irrefutable historical facts and the Muslim world, especially that part colonized by the European Christian countries have a first-hand experience with this brutality and , therefore, have no interest in Christianity, whatsoever.

Interestingly, many Europeans are converting to Islam and seem almost relieved to put their associations with Christianity behind them since they believe that Christianity is the religion of intolerance and violence, and not Islam.

It seems that many centuries ago, the KIng of the Jews was transformed into the King of the Butchers, a title that must break his heart.

But you really shouldn't be such hateful and violent people, for no other reason than hate and violence are a cancer on the soul.

No, I, like most Muslims have no interest in Christianity, the religion of torture, murder, deceit, and intolerance.

Our God is a god of love, for He has made us Muslims.

Light!

Light!

Abdur

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Sorry, luv, but that just doesn't seem to be so.

"It was the will of Allah that the early Muslims suffer passively under the brutal opposition and persecution of their pagan foes. We know that many pagans opened their hearts to the message of Islam as they were witnesses to the courage and steadfastness of the early and persecuted Muslim community. And so the work of God is done according to His will."

"Pagan foes" is a permission to assault other "people of the book"? Hmm. Seems to be sloppy logic to me.

The key point is (and despite earlier failings in this regard): Islam, through the Koran, appears to allow the killing of certain groups of human beings. Judaism, with its "eye for an eye" morality, appears to also condone fighting back.

Christianity, in the Gospel, does NOT, EVER!, allow homicide. Though our ancestors have clearly transgressed this mandate, it is still the absolute standard. The earliest Christians absolutely refused to fight back against the Romans or others and went gladly to their deaths. (Someone who has killed another is absolutely forbidden to be ordained a priest or bishop or any other leader in the Christian community. Yeah. We're SERIOUS about this and it's part of our law and practice.)

What, therefore, is one to say about the Moslem theology of killing off those who refuse to submit?

If indeed "love" is the ultimate goal of these Judeo-Christian-Islamic religiosities, how can the sanctioned killing fit into "love"? It's like saying: "You've committed sin, so I'm going to kill you so you can't sin any more."

Frankly, that is duplicitous and an affront to logic.

Blessings!

"Is he whose mind God has opened for Islam, so that he follows the light from his Lord, like one who gropes in the darkness of disbelief?" Surah 39:22.

You are not the only one who truly clings to his or her faith out of personal devotion and with sincerity.

"Say,'It is Allah I worship, being purely sincere to Him in my obedience.'" Surah 39:14.

"Again you may go and worship whomsoever you please.... ." Surah 39:15.

Light that brings Peace

Abdur

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,

I am interested in the journey that you have undertaken here in this part of cyberspace. I hope that my question does not affront you for it is not intended to generate heat but light.

Why did you undertake your journey in this space?

In the God who is working His Will in us all, even in our prideful foolishness,

Steve

JOY!

I am in no way bothered by Abdur's presence here. As Byzantine Christians, we (at least in the Near East) live with Moslems and trying to understand what they belive and where they are coming from is very important for me personally.

From my personal perspective, my main question is: Christianity never allows either the persecution or killing of another -- ever. Islam appears to allow both persecution and potential killing of selected individuals - for various reasons.

This is what bothers me. And for this reason, I will keep my 0.38 under my pillow -- to defend my Greek mother and my blinded Irish-American friends. (I fully understand that Christ might not be happy with this perspective. I will talk with Him.)

Is this not a real issue? Am I wrong in this understanding of the "theology/politics of Islam"?

Blessings!

Personally I am quite happy that Abdur brings another perspective to this discussion. Explanations and counter explanations, claims and counter claims, examples and counter examples, and accusations and counter accusations have all been made. This discussion would not have the richness that it does without the presence of a person for whom Islam is a religion and way of life as well as the presence of us for whom Christianity is a religion and way of life.

For a discussion such as the one we are undertaking to generate light, it is important for us here to remember what others know of us. From what I understand and remember from my study of history, Christainity as it has been represented by Christians has not been clean of hand or heart in its treatment of those who are of other faiths. Abdur points this out quite clearly. I believe that the same must be said of Islam as it has been represented by muslims. There are a number of Christian posters who have ably pointed this out.

Those muslims, Indians, Native Americans and Africans who suffered at the hands of the followers of Christ would perceive that Christianity is a religion of violence and hate based on the actions of Christians. Those Christains, Copts, Sudanese, East Timorese, and Indonesians who have suffered at the hands of the followers of Islam would perceive that Islam is a religion of violence and hate based on the action of Muslims. So much violence and hate has been perpetrated that much of the conversation here is colored by the residue of it if not the direct experience of it. There is heat as a result!

Perceptions are real and they govern our behavior all to often. Oft times these perceptions become part of a mass psyche and poison the perceptions of those who do not have any contact with those who are the others. This happened in the Second World War when we, Americans, interned American Citizens of Japanese ancestry in concentrations camps. This remembered history is one reason for the restraint encouraged of the majority of Americans by our government when we deal with our muslim citizens.

If we are looking for light here, we should be guided by that restraint in both directions. As Christians here in this space though we must exercise restraint because of the command to love others as we love ourselves and as we are loved. We cannot escape that command in the here and now if we are to witness the Christ Who loves us all to those Who know Him not.

The discussion in this Forum could be an important one because here we have a chance to ask hard questions of those who come with a different viewpoint.

We have the chance to learn about the history of Islam and to learn of its practice in muslim societies and in the larger world society. Muslims have the chance to learn about the history of Christianity from a Christian perspective and to hear of its practice today. We can hear eachother's fears and dreams.

We are all obligated to ask hard questions but to do so in a way that does not demean the rights that belong to persons. Important to us here is the right to believe and to live freely even if our beliefs are different from those of the majority.

For us Christians, the questions are many. Is the Islam that is practiced here in the West the same as that in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and Sudan? Is it being changed by its contact with secular society as has Christianity? It appears that the secular state limited the power of religious groups to impose beliefs on those who do not agree them? Is there a similar process in progress in the Islamic world?

Is our tolerance of diversity in the "Christian" West a development of civil law? I wonder along with Alex if some Christian religious leaders would be able to resist imposing their rules on those who do not believe if civil power was theirs or under their sway. Is this not what the inquisition was about and the forced Byzantinization of Georgia resulted from? Are not civil restrictions on religions (including the Eastern Catholics) other than the "traditional" Russian religions in Russia examples of such exercises of power?

Is the injunction to protect the Faith expressed in the early history of Islam peculiar to that time in its history or is it still a living injunction? Are not taxes on practice of religion, civil penalties for conversion to Christianity by muslims, and the different weights given to the testimony of Christian witnesses versus that given to the testimomy of muslim witnesses in civil courts (in Pakistan) examples of the misuse of power and violations the rights of humans? Is this a function of Islam or of a misrepresentation of Islam? Is there a reason that they should not be of concern to Christians in traditional Christian lands where there are converts to Islam?

The issues here are not simple, it seems to me. In fact there may be too many issues; and the complexities of history might be too involved for us to talk in a way that is reasonable and charitible.

If our focus is on portraying one religion as good and proving that the other is evil, perhaps the talk will do more evil than good.

Our reason for being here is important!

Against that backdrop, is it reasonable for persons to keep a weapon in the drawer? Depends on the person and the situation it seems to me. Perhaps it would be reasonable for a European muslim if he expected a home invasion or persecution to be perpetrated by Christians or others. In Indonesia perhaps it would be reasonable for a Christian if he expected a home invasion to be perpetrated. In Florida or Virginia perhaps it might be reasonable for a person who expects criminals to perpetrate a home invasion for gain.

Should it be a factor in our discussion here?

I hope that this makes some sense. At least, I hope that it does no harm.

Steve

JOY!

Please do not permit the written expression to impede the meaning or the love!

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Dear Steve,

Srbrenica, DNA, and my Shaikh.

It is not good for Slavs to slaughter one another.

Let us all admit to our many sins, no matter how painful the reality of the many failings of our respective faiths, so we never slaughter one another again.

Contrary to popular opinion, Allah demands peace---Salam. There is a new Islam being birthed, and the pangs of birth are excruciating, but there is such light and glory in this birthing process that it must be shared.

Honesty about the past cleanses the soul---it is confession which brings forgiveness and healing from Allah who loves us.

However, we are not doomed to live in the past. Allah does not decree such misery. ( But I, too, must sleep with a kalishnikov under my bed until those who hate me because I am a Muslim are brought into the light of civilization.)

Salam

Abdur

Heard on the news this morning that the President of Pakistan is now going to go after the theological schools of Islam, the source of Islamic militancy. Seems that the government is now going to cut off fund$. He calculates that just over 10% of Muslims support their activities; not a sweeping majority. Even the majority of Muslims are disgusted with the constant fundamentalist terror that comes from these schools of hate. Several instructor-clerics were arrested.

Dear Abdur,

Salaam Alekum!

You are right. We Christians tend to hold up the New Testament and the words of Jesus as "proof" that we are somehow not as violent as others.

My point all along is that at the Last Judgement Jesus, whom we all accept will be the Judge then, won't examine us to see which sacred texts we have in our hands, but whether our actions meshed with the ideals we paid lip service to.

Edwin's reference to Pakistan reminds one also of Billy Graham's son who quoted scripture and the example of King David who waged war and of how God blessed him for so doing!

St Basil the Great imposed an excommunication of three years on any Christian who participated in any war. He imposed the same on any Christian living in a society that goes to war, since, he believed, if that person were a true Christian, they would have influenced the society and transformed it into a peaceful one.

This entire conversation is really beginning to get disturbing and, I believe, unChristian.

It is more to the point to see where we interconnect and to see what we may learn from each other.

My father was a beekeeper who kept a picture of a figure of beeswax found by an Egyptian beekeeper in his hive. The figure was the Arabic lettering for "Allah."

Although Eastern Catholic, dad kept that around as an inspirational piece.

Why can't we do similar things?

We all have much to ask forgiveness for. And we all have much to share that is inspiring.

Allahuakbar!

Alex

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Edwin,

I've heard that the estimates of support for radical Islamists runs between 10 and 20% of the entire "ummah". If the "ummah" is around one billion, we're talking about between 100 million and 200 million -- not a small number at all, I'm afraid.

Brendan

Brendan,

I was talking about Pakistan.

Dear Edwin,

Yes you were!

And they have one of the lowest numbers of radical Islamists anywhere in the Islamic world.

Radical Islamists never make any significant gains at election time, the Pakistanis just don't want much to do with them.

We should also remember that the current government of Pakistan, although an ally of the U.S. (but those things change overnight, don't they?), is in fact very undemocratic and militaristic in character itself.

So there is the matter of the pot calling the kettle black here . . .

Edwin, you are wonderful!

Alex

Abdur,


From the Associated Press:

- - - - - - -

Oct. 19, 1994 — Palestinian suicide bomber kills 22 Israelis in bus explosion in Tel Aviv. Hamas claims responsibility.

Jan. 22, 1995 —Two Palestinians blow themselves up at the Beit Lid junction in central Israel, killing 21 Israelis. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility.

April 9, 1995 —Two Palestinians blow themselves up outside two Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, killing seven Israeli soldiers and an American. Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.

Feb. 25, 1996 — Palestinian suicide bombers blow up bus in Jerusalem and soldiers' hitchhiking post in coastal city of Ashkelon, killing 24 Israelis, two Americans and a Palestinian. Hamas claims responsibility.

March 3, 1996 — Bus bomb in Jerusalem kills at least 18 people, including six Romanians and two Palestinians. Hamas claimed responsibility.

March 4, 1996 — Suicide bomber blows himself up outside a Tel Aviv shopping center, killing at least 14 people.

July 30, 1997 — Two bombers kill themselves and 15 others in an outdoor Jerusalem market. Leaflet signed by Hamas' military wing claims responsibility.

June 1, 2001 — Suicide bomber blows himself up outside Tel Aviv nightclub, killing himself and 21 others.

Aug. 9, 2001 — A suicide bomber kills 15 people in Jerusalem pizza restaurant.

Sept. 9, 2001 — The first Israeli-Arab suicide bomber blows himself up at a railroad station in northern Israel, killing three others.

Nov. 29, 2001 — A suicide bomber blows himself up on board a bus on a main highway in Israel's north, killing three passengers. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility for the attack.

Dec. 1, 2001 — Two suicide bombers blow themselves up in back-to-back explosions at a downtown Jerusalem pedestrian mall, killing at least eight bystanders.

- - - - -

Why do those professing in Jihad (holy homocide) prey on innocent 'civilians' as direct targets and not big military institutions? Killings at malls, buses, stations, markets, etc. It is easy to kill a baby in a stroller. Where is the God of Love in all of this?

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Edwin ]

It is often said that "Judaism, Christianity -&- Islam are religions of peace." I beg to differ. There are elements of peace in every religion but to what degree and what length?
Only Orthodoxy lives and breathes the peace known through our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Christ said "in ME you may have peace (John 16:33)". Christ is about peace. Christ is peace. The goal of human existence is to live the life in Christ. Christ lived His entire life in peace. He spoke of peace
("Blessed are the peacemakers")and greeted followers -&- strangers
in peace("Peace be to you"). He died in peace without a
struggle. He never advocated the use of the sword or "eye for
an eye, tooth for a tooth". The word "peace" is a divine
attribute of Christ. Many religions speak about peace but true
peace is living a sincere Christ-like lifestyle. People in
Christ time viewed Him as a radical. Many today would say the
same thing about Christians living a Christ-like lifestyle:
that we are radicals. It all depends on which side of the fence
one sits on. The Divine Liturgy constantly bombards us with the
words of peace. The Divine Liturgy starts out in the beginning
of the Great Ektenia
"In PEACE let us pray to the Lord".
"For the PEACE from above, and for the salvation of our souls,
let us pray to the Lord".
For the PEACE of the whole world; and for the good estate of the
holy churches of God, and for the union of all men, let us pray
to the Lord".
Then the prayer of the Little Ektenia begins with "Again and
again in PEACE let us pray to the Lord". By the completion time
of the reading of the Epistle the priest proclaims "PEACE be to
thee that readest". Then right before the reading of the Holy
Gospel the priest proclaims "PEACE be to all".

These are some of the abundant examples taken from our liturgy
that promote peace in every aspect of our human life. No where
is true peace found magnified but in the Lord Jesus Christ. If
Christ is not recognized as Lord and Savior then there cannot be
true peace. The denial of Christ as Lord and Savior brings
contempt and hatred towards fellow men. Examples of this are
found in our midst in the U.S. as well as in the Middle East and
Islamic nations. Any religion outside of Orthodoxy that denies
Christ as did Judas lives not in the presence or communion of
God. If Muhammad had accepted Orthodox Christianity rather than create his own man-made religion the world might be a better place to live in peace. Our goal as Orthodox Christians is communion with Christ our God. The process of this restoration is the journey of a
lifetime. Moving from glory to glory.

One final comment, the Islamic world is recognized for its universal greetings to fellow Muslims "Salam alikum" which means "peace be upon you". This was and continues to be part of
the Judeo-Christain heritage which many of our Christian peoples tend to not know. The next time you are greeted with "Salam alikum" view it as "Christ be upon you".
The word "Salam" is one of the divine names of Christ. He is the Prince of Peace. Unfortunately, the Muslims do not know
Christ as we do. Let us pray for the them to know Christ and to have Him from above in all our lives. Next time you are at
Divine Liturgy listen to the priest's words before the reading of the Holy Gospel in the Arabic language: "Salam leejamee'kum"
(Peace be to all).

It is no benefit to any religion to preach peace if it contains the smallest element of discrimination against another or even untruthfulness about another. It is no benefit to any religion if its founder(i.e. Muhammed) fought in over 30 some wars and raids and decapitated many of his enemies. What did Muhammad reveal to us that Christianity did not offer? Just Wars? More women for every man? There was no need for another prophet of this caliber since Christ is our final Peace. The most baffling statements that came out of the mouth of Christ was to "love your enemies" and "forgive them for they do not know what they do". How does Muhammed compare? He doesn't since he used the sword. Granted, many Christians have not acted as Christians but indirectly have unknowingly followed the ways of Muhammed. This is the unfortunate and terrible tragedy of history. However, the divine revelations given to us remain the ultimate standards till Kingdom comes. Fallen man may alter and disagree with Allah but Allah is all-Eternal.


-"...let God be true but every man a liar(Romans 3:4)".
-Christ is Light of Light,true God of true God, begotten not made of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made...
-uncreated Ruh Allah & uncreated Kalimat Allah (uncreated Spirit & uncreated Word of God). Allah's Spirit is not the archangel Gabriel but His very Holiness spiritually manifested.