www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Toll Houses

Can anyone tell something about the Orthodox belief on "Toll houses"?I have heard that it is an Orthodox version of purgatory.
Thanks

Because I cannot find unanimity on the Orthodox teaching on "toll houses," I personally believe that the toll houses are an allegory of what happens on *this* side of the "Great Divide" between life and death and *not* a teaching similar to the Latin teaching of Purgatory. If it is, then an uderstanding of Purgatory occuring immediately prior to one's repose would be the closest proximation in the teaching.

OrthodoxEast

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

I read about the toll houses in Fr. Seraphim Rose's (memory eternal!) book "The Soul after death." I'm convinced that they are real.

He addressed the idea that the toll houses are an Orthodox concept of purgatory. He said that the West has never said that demons do the tormenting in purgatory, demons are involved in the toll houses.

Now if you want a real Orthodox "purgatory" take the belief of the Orthodox that a soul still needing purification from sin must go into hell for a time until it is released by the prayers and liturgies of the Church.

Adam

nice choice for an icon Theosis

The Roman Catholic doctrine is interested in defining a final purgation that may be needed for the person (after physical death) before complete union with God. In as much as what may remain in us (heart and mind) of sin can not have union with God. The thought is that that those who die (but will not be sent to hell by the final judgment of them) may require a final purgation of their spirit (mind and heart) before union with God. Rather than defining a �place� or a condition, action, or state - that only takes place at one moment (after death and before union with God) the RC it is rather saying that - a final purgation from sin must take place, after physical death, for those who will be united to God. That would be the simple way to put it. This final purgation is called �Purgatory� in as much as it is the actions of purgation at that juncture (not a place where it takes place). That is about it for the official doctrine. It is limited to the final purgation of sin after death and before total union with God.

In Roman Catholic theological extension, Purgatory (the action of a final purgation) may also take place before physical death. Those who obtain the Mystical Union or Mystical Marriage - can only obtain the marriage union with God after a final purgation of serious sin and almost(?) all minor sin. One would have to understand the Mystical Union. So in that sense, a person can go through Purgatory (final purgation) before physical death - but this has not been defined one way or the other by the Church and does not need to be. It has certainly been written about by the Doctors of the Church (Roman Catholic).

Both Eastern and Western Catholic theology recognize three stages to spiritual growth.

1) Purgation.
2) Illumination
3) Unitive

Purgation - The action of role of being purged from sin and its effects .
Illumination - The action of God enlighten the mind and heart of the soul.
Unitive - The final stage which stage culminates in the Mystical Marriage.

Is the Mystical Marriage the filnal stage of the Unitive stage or is it a 'fourth' stage? No one is clear and it is probably that it is - both - in a way.

The three stages are viewed in a two fold way. That is - that not only can it be recognized that a person will progress through the three stages during his life (on the way to mystical union while still here) - but these three stages are also present in a �local� way - that is that there is a cycle of purgation, illumination and union that takes place several times within the overall life span and big picture and things hift around (for example - within the Unitive satge there is a very intense purgation of the spirit (the mind) in which the person is left with only the darkness of faith - much darker than had ever taken place in the Purgative stage which takes place mostly in the senses and what we can call the lower parts of the mind).

It is clear from the many spiritual writers that they want to give a bit of a road map but do not want to give a 'formula' (like Alchemy did).

The stages are named for their predominance. Which means that in the first stage (let us say that someone experiences a conversion from a materialistic life style to a Christian life style) the predominate action is a purge from sin and sinful ways (the person turns to God and ceases materialistic ways and begins a spiritual life). In several years time the person enters the illuminative stage where (the major purgation now behind him) he will receive illumination of the mind regarding such things as truth, reality and church doctrine. In several years more time (if he is true to the purgation and illumination he has received) he enters into the Unitive stage - or the Mystical Marriage.

Anywhere along the way there are �smaller� cycles - that is that the person is purged of some particular sin or sinful attitude (and no purgation is enjoyable) and on the heels of that he receives some particular illumination - which illumination is followed by a sense of union with God.

The idea of �purgation� is not simply one of �the person decides to cease sin� in some particular area. That is �asetics� - which is a voluntary cease of our willing cooperation with habitual movements of particular and habitual sin. Purgation is rather than something we do - it is something that God does through the use of Providential events and circumstances and grace - the sin and most of our tendency to a particular sin - is removed. This is why those who think of the church and her ceremonies and such as a means of therapy and behavioral modification are so often disappointed and moving from church to church. Ascetics is what we do to cease a willing cooperation with sin - but sin and its tendencies and effects are not removed by it. The removal is done through providential events (a purgation) combined with grace.

Purgatory (sounding like a place) would probably be better served today by the words �Final Purgation� and will be needed by anyone who has not reached Mystic Union before death - and - will not be judged to hell (total lose of God).

The main working area of purgation - is the memory and senses. The main working area of illumination is the spirit or mind - and the main area of union is the intellect (full knowledge of your own immediate and intimate union with God).

In this way - there is harmony between the Eastern concept of Toll Houses (which concept is also not limited to an after death experience but can also describe a continued events of purgation in this life). Purgation is thought of a �making payment� in as much as the �payment� is actually a repair of the damage done to our own soul when we sin. The �payment� is our own suffering while the repair is being done although there is nothing about suffering that God desires of us - it is accidental to the repair and more connected to how reluctant we are to giving up our sinful ways and habits.

Saints who have recognized the experiential value of purgation (the following illumination and moments of union) have often expressed a joy in suffering and have (for a time) wanted to suffer! But after more spiritual growth came to recognize that suffering itself has no value - it is merely an accidental to purgation (in other words our own reaction connected to our own voluntary attachment for habits of sin).

The Hebrew concept is the same (under their own words of course). Where �shela� (a concept of suffering under the hot noonday sun) is a purgation from sin and its effects . The concept is a spiritual comparison to being �laid low in the dry dust� and suffering under the heat of the desert sun. The prophetic picture is one of a metal smith heating the silver in his furnace until it has become molten enough and heated enough to burn of the impurities.

And scripture has spoken often of prayer and vows and actions by the living which bring comfort to those who have died - asking grace from God for those who are in purgation.


Your own thoughts�
Because I cannot find unanimity on the Orthodox teaching on "toll houses," I personally believe that the toll houses are an allegory of what happens on *this* side of the "Great Divide" between life and death and *not* a teaching similar to the Latin teaching of Purgatory. If it is, then an uderstanding of Purgatory occuring immediately prior to one's repose would be the closest proximation in the teaching.

OrthodoxEast

are very insightful and apply to the Toll House just as well as to Purgatory (which has been officially defined as the final purgation - but does not limit the actions of the final purgation to after death only).

Just a discussion. I am not a theologian.

The Orthodox priests I know (and they are solidly Orthodox) have denounced the toll house myth as heresy, as baggage of those inclined to gnosticism. There is no purgatory in the Eastern Orthodox faith. I would question the person who posted that the Orthodox believe a soul still needing purification goes to hell temporarily. I have never, ever heard such a thing before.

From what I understand, it is unhealthy to speculate on death too much. All we need to know is that if we believe in Jesus and do our best to serve Him and His Church, we have the hope of being with Him forever. As far as I know, we die, we receive our "personal judgement," in which we have a foretaste of our eternal destiny, and then we have the final judgement. We spend eternity in one place or the other, no pit stops.

Archbishop Lazar Puhalo of Canada (OCA) has written some very excellent books on the Orthodox teaching on the after life, from Synaxis Press, which I highly recommend.

Dear Friends,

Well, St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv in his original Catechism did indeed believe in a Purgatory - he continued even after Orthodoxy expunged this teaching from his document.

While one can say he was under the influence of scholasticism, there is nothing in Orthodoxy that would condemn private belief in Purgatory.

The Orthodox Fathers attending the Council of Florence were actually shocked that the Latins had developed "states" or "Places" after death, including purgatory and limbo.

The question is not whether Purgatory is a state or place or whatever.

Orthodoxy doesn't believe souls are assigned to either heaven or hell in a final way until they are reunited with the body at the Second Coming of Christ.

The process of union with God in Orthodoxy is a dynamic one.

Purgatory suggests that one is purged of one's sins, spiritual debts etc. until one reaches heaven which is where that process stops.

Orthodoxy believes that even the Mother of God and the Saints may have their union with God made all that more perfect through prayer in their honour and for them on earth.

We pray FOR them at each Divine Liturgy, and not only offer it in their honour! (See the prayers of the priest following the Consecration).

The Church prays for the release of a soul from its sins.

St Peter Mohyla said that even when we see someone committing a terrible sin before their death, we must pray to God not to punish them according to their sin, but to release them from punishment.

The Western Catholic categories are "neater" and easier for the mind to grasp which is why they have been more popular.

The Eastern Church would rather bow before mystery than try to engage our feeble rational minds in attempting to understand it.

As for the toll-houses, we really have no idea.

Archbishop Lazar represents one view only and he has been roundly criticized from other Orthodox quarters for his views.

The fact is that the entire system of 40 days' prayer for the dead in Orthodoxy is based on the toll-house vision of St Macarius - so I don't know if we are justified in completely rejecting it.

Alex

Over the past two weeks on the Indiana list, there has been a very lively discussion of the Orthodox perspectives on toll house and the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose on the subject.

http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/orthodox.html

Dear djs,

Well, the toll-houses are mentioned liturgically, off and on.

For our friends who may not know what we are talking about, "toll-houses" refers to a view of what happens to the soul immediately following death.

At that point, two angels are said to come to the soul to guard it through what might be described as a "gauntlet" of about twenty or so "toll-houses" that represent the major virtues in life.

As the soul nears one such "toll-house," the demons that are there accuse the soul of the vices that goes against the virtue ie. that it was proud, rather than humble, in life. The soul defends itself, as do the angels. Then the soul goes on to another "toll-house" representing another virtue.

By the end of what is really a horrific process, the soul goes on with the rest of the 40 day period of wandering etc.

The Mother of God herself apparently believed in the toll-houses, if the deuterocanonical tradition is to be believed.

Prior to her Dormition, she asked her Son to come and take her directly to prevent her from being accosted by the demons of the air in the toll-houses.

And her Son granted her her request. This is what we see in the icon of the Dormition, Christ Himself holding the soul of His most Pure Mother in His own Hands, protecting her from the assaults of the demons of the air, of the toll-houses.

Alex

Is there not some kind of Greek/liturgical word for "toll houses"? This phrase makes me think of the Nestle cookies.

ChristTeen287

Yes, ChristTeen, and happy birthday a little late, - it does take a bit of effort to permanently disengage oneself from "my grandmother's nice chocolate chip cookies" to contemplate the serious and solemn process Alex describes well in his post.
I am glad you described it for us, Alex, as even though I knew exactly what this meant and had read of it long ago, it helps to have a really good explanation of it, for I think I had forgotten some of those specifics.
And yes, contemplation of chocolate chip cookies will never be the same again, eh, ChristTeen?
CS (you'll have to forgive the rambling as I must be tired, it is getting late ...)

Dear Friends,

I think the lesson of the toll houses is simply that death is a serious thing that we are to prepare for well and that it involves a struggle.

It is a struggle we are already engaged in - with powers and principalities that go throughout the world seeking the ruination of souls.

But we also have great resources at our disposal to fight the good fight, the Name of Jesus, the power of the Spirit, the intercession of Our Lady and the Saints.

As for the evil ones, we cannot do other than fight them with God's power.

They used to be angels and still have angelic power.

As one Father said, an angel has the power to reduce the world to ashes with a single thought.

Alex

Thanks!

I'm the Damai Lama when it comes to meditation/contemplation of All Things Chocolate.

ChristTeen287

Purgatory is solidly Scriptural, and the early Fathers (both East and West) believed in it, as their writings attest. The Orthodox practice of praying for the dead would also seem to presuppose it -- why pray for people who are already either in heaven or hell?

So, really, this modern Orthodox aversion to purgatory simply baffles me. Like so many things in modern (as opposed to traditional) Orthodoxy, it just seems like an over-reaction against Rome. It's like: "The Catholics believe this so we can't -- even though it's part of our own tradition!"

Seems self-defeating to me.

Blessings,

Diane

P.S. Loads of canonized saints and mystics have had the privilege of seeing Purgatory in highly detailed visions, BTW....

In the 18th prayer before Holy Communion according to the Old Rite, our holy father Germanus of Jerusalem asks the All-Holy Mother of God to free us from the aerial toll-houses. I'll stick to listening to the Holy Fathers rather than some of the priests of today, who ridicule not only the toll-houses but also righteous men such as Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina by throwing in the word gnostic.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Diane,

"Purgatory" is nowhere mentioned in the Scriptures and it is foreign to the early Church Fathers, East and West.

It is a much later doctrinal development in the West based on a Latin attempt to rationally explain where the souls of those who are neither in heaven or hell are.

And it is perfectly logical to conclude that if someone in moral sin goes to hell and someone who is pure goes to heaven, then if one dies in venial sin or else isn't totally detached from sinfulness, the only place he can go is to a place of purgation.

But again, the teaching that souls 'go' to heaven and hell BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ is a later Latin doctrine that was never accepted by the East - and has no real Patristic witness in the West until much later.

The Greeks were shocked at the Council of Florence when they learned that the Latins had assigned "places" to souls after death and before the second Coming of Christ.

For the East, we pray for the dead to be losed from their sins. AND we can pray FOR as well as TO the Saints. In all cases, such prayer can make even more perfect their union with God and, as in the former case, bring them closer to God.

Our Divine Liturgy prays FOR the Mother of God and the Saints (see the priest's prayers following the Canon). Our relationship to God is always dynamic and can always become even more perfect.

It is only at the Second Coming of Christ when we are composite wholes, body, soul and spirit, once again that we will be judged for heaven or hell.

Until then, the souls of the reposed are in the "forecourts" of either.

And prayer for those who have reposed should be made assiduously to God.

As St Peter Mohyla said in his Catechism, "Even if we see someone make a bold sin before death, we should pray to God and ask Him not to punish that person according to their sin."

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

I agree!

Toll-houses are reflected in liturgical prayers and in the entire structure of the 40 day commemoration of the dead following their repose.

The term "gnostic" is simply a cheap shot by modernists.

Alex

The Orthodox Church believes that if a soul is to be purified before the final judgement, then the only place for purification is in the fire of hell - not purgatory. Before the parousia and the final judgement by Christ, the way to heaven remains open and we seek to help the souls of the departed through prayer, fasting, alms and the offering of the Holy Liturgy.

Spasi Khristos - Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Am I wrong, or are you here?

The Eastern Church believes not in any purifying fire - the Orthodox at Florence who became Catholics weren't even obliged to admit that Purgatory had fire in it!

Alex

Dear Alex -

The difference here is that whilst the Latin Church spoke about purgation in temporal fire - purgatory - the Orthodox theologians said that there is only the eternal fire of hell, in which the temporal sins may be purged. The image of fire is not always present in Eastern interpretations. The image of a place of darkmess and sorrow, untouched by the divine light is ogten encountered. What it all adds up to is the Orthodox assertion that even temporal punishment takes part in hell, where for some poor souls the punishment may be eternal.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Then what becomes of the idea of the "Forecourt" of both heaven and hell?

And that we only really enter into either after the Second Coming of Christ?

Alex

Dear Alex -

The intermediate state of the soul between the particular and final judgements is a foretaste of the eternal abode of the soul. The fulness of the bliss of heaven - or the horror of hell - is surely experiential and not necessarily geographical.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

That's what I meant - the soul is neither in heaven or in hell before the Final Judgement.

Will you be ordained an Hieromonk in the future?

Not that it's any of my business. . .

But not to have one so wonderful AND brilliant as a priest is surely not good . . .

Alex

So, Alex, let me get your take on it straight.

When we die, we go into the respective forecourts/"waiting rooms" of Heaven and Hell (wherever we are to go eventually) and experience a sort of "lesser" version of the Final Courts? Is that it?

ChristTeen287

P.S.- Let us remember the only thing about Purgatory/Final Theosis we are obliged as Catholics to believe is that,

a) There is a place of some type of purgation before one enters Heavem, IF one has gained salvation and,

b) Prayers for the souls in these/this place(s) is efficacious.

I don't see how this would contradict either your version or the Roman version.

Well, this discussion has certainly taken on! From the West I hear assertions that purgatory is orthodox, and from the East I hear that Seraphim Rose is a noteworthy example of orthodox traditional beliefs in toll houses. As far as I have seen myself, neither view is mainstream within the eastern orthodox churches. Fr. Seraphim has acceptance among folks with a synodal bent (Church Outside Russia, Christ the Savior Brotherhood, etc), but not necessarily among mainstream orthodox seminary theologians in America. Other orthodox clergy have said so, in any case. Purgatory as it is understood in the West is not taught to catechumens of the eastern churches as far as I know, so I have some difficulty seeing how it could really be accepted in the east at large.

Having said all this, as early as "The Spiritual Meadow" of the early desert fathers, there are stories of prayers after death helping the deceased to improve his/her situation.

The fact is, the less speculation with regard to the hereafter the better. Non-Christians and Protestants I know find the orthodox practice of panakhidas at the 40th day and yearly anniversary a good thing, because they help the living as well as the dead. There is nothing quite so hard as living with grief after the community's initial attention has passed.

You will certainly not read the English word there - that is foreign to all writer of the time - but if you become familiar with Hebrew customs, traditions, and such - then purgation (the action of being purged from sin - either before of �after� death) is certainly there in both the Old and New Testament.

The word Purgatory - is certainly dated - if the doctrine was formulated today it would be �Purgation� because times and culture have changed. The word �Purgatory� was well understood rightly at the time it was formulated and in the culture in which it came to be (by those who cared to understand it). The Hebrews spoke of it with the word �shela� and although they spoke of it as a place and noun (�you have laid me low in shela�) it is clearly meant as an action and verb and is comparable to being near death in the desert, dry and waterless, while the sun burns down upon you and your only food is the waterless dry earth.

The history in the church of the verb being noun�ed - is long.

Heaven? - used as a noun but is a verb. Hell - used as a noun but is a verb. God - used as a noun but is a verb. Abraham, Israel, Jew (�those who have-the-form of Jews but are not� - Paul when speaking of Judacisors) all used as nouns but are verbs. How about �Paradise� the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew �Eden� when we hear Christ say �Today you shall be with me in Paradise (Eden).� - what day will it be in Paradise? What time of day? Shall it be toward evening? Will there be trees and grass ? Shall we look for Eden somewhere in Africa? Perhaps he means some other dimension or on some far away planet?

Is it not the fundamentalists among the Muslims who believe that after the Resurrection heaven will be here on earth and each man will have seven virgins to have his way with?

Certainly those who spread the �truth� that the Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is a location and place - implicate that she also teaches that heaven and hell (with Purgatory in between) are also - places.

If "the Greeks were shocked The Greeks were shocked at the Council of Florence when they learned that the Latins had assigned "places" to souls after death and before the second Coming of Christ." - then what they were shocked at was what was in their own heads and they falsely, in their pride, attributed it to the Latins. "How can WE the great Greeks - the pride of philosophy and defenders of the true church - be wrong??? We judge all men by the measure of ourselves." I cannot help, from my study of the early church, to think that it is a great tribute to the power of the Providence of God that the Catholic Churches (several) even survived the self-righteous pride of too many of the early Greek fathers.

Purgation is an action. We something refer to heaven and hell as if they were a - place - Jesus himself did this and if we were to take Him to task for it we would have to believe that hell is the physical location of Gehenna and is only a few hundred feet wide just outside of the wall of Jerusalem (the town dump) and its fire have been out for 2000 years�. but only those unfamiliar with understanding the full doctrine (and care not to understand it better) get stuck. It is better to say �I do not understand what they teach� then it is to accuse them of a false teaching which they do not teach. How else are we to understand Christ himself when he advises us to accept our purgation while yet still alive - or after death we shall be thrown into prison and not let out into union with God �until the last farthing is paid�?? Talk about the concept of Toll house!!

Alex - I do not say that YOU believe heaven is a �place� or that you initiated the rumor that the RC teaches Purgatory is a place of time and space - but you have certainly fallen to it somehow.

The rest of my letter is actually addressed the nameless masses who have fallen to this rumor�

The Eastern church is replete - with references to this action - either before death or after. The trace and line of the doctrine that a soul (person) must be purged of sin and its effects before union with God - begins in Genesis (the angel who stands at the path back to Eden - with his flaming sword - that no one may return to Eden unless all sin be cut and burned from him) - runs straight through to Revelations - (those martyr who now stand in white robes - those who have endured the action of purgation) - and that one must be purged is embedded as a cornerstone of mystical tradition East - West - etc.. through out the entire Catholic church.

The burnt offering (symbolic of our own sacrifice and purgation) - the sacrifice of our wills - the three stages of the spiritual life (as first laid out by the Theban desert father - to be carried on to us today through the earliest Greek fathers). One will surely mis-read any book if one does not take care to know the mind, culture and traditions of its writers. To keep us safe from that - we have obedience to the magisterial structure of the Church - and it is this magieretial structure which authored the book (apostles) codified the book (succession) and has the only legitimate authority to tell the meaning of the book (the ecclesiastic church today). God has made it easy for us - we do not all need to be scholars to confirm what the church teaches. Why do we leave what God guarantees to go off and try to figure it our ourselves or look for the �real� truth outside of the guaranteed authority? A bit foolish - not to mention a waste of ones short time here.

My regrets for being blunt - but the promulgation of this false implication on the Roman Church - is the sin of rumor (if you ask me) and its life (carried on and on through years and years) astonishes me. Such a falsehood - believed by a majority - becomes �truth� to so many. I have no idea why they are satisfied to flit around the edges of the church and do not just dive into her center - her core - and say to themselves - it is up to me, it is my obedience and renunciation of my own will and errors that I should now spend my efforts to try and understand the view of the church rather then argue with her and so rise from my unhappy state to mystical union.

Again, my apologies, my frustration is at the �life� of this falsehood - not at the unwitting who heard it somewhere and pass it on as if it were the gospel truth.

Yes. It is true that many Catholic Priests and nuns taught purgatory as a �place� - either misunderstanding the doctrine or - intentionally putting it in words that young minds might understand a bit. Like the stories of Genesis - if one ceases at the literal words - who is to blame? The one who wrote Genesis or the reader who fails at the spirit of it by stumbling on the letter of it?

If we must condemn the letter of the Law - then ALL early father�s were so wrong about so much - that they should ALL be condemned as heretics. The world is not flat - angles do not fly - neither the Copts nor the Ethiopian church was in heresy - and many of the early Greek �fathers� were so self righteous that who ever did not agree with them - they did their best to get thrown out of the church (they thought they WERE the Church!). To be Catholic - you had to be Greek or think and speak like a Greek.

Being a saint or early father - does not mean they were error free like Jesus Christ. To treat the early fathers as infallible and to substitute our own poor understanding of their thoughts over the guaranteed authority of the Church today - is a mistake.

It is regrettable - that member of any church - often teach their own mistaken ideas, in the name of that church - but it is also regrettable that we, the supposed faithful, take very little interest to dig deeply into the core of our church in order to get to the source of the stream before it has become polluted by a number of half-hearted members. Just because the Pope has infallibility at times - does not mean all members of the Roman Church have infallibility at all times. Although many people act as if every member of the Roman Catholic church is supposed to be infallibly teaching the church at all time. Would! That all members of the RC WERE infallible at all times! But only the magisterial is and only in union with the Pope - and at certain times and in certain matters. The rest depends upon our own trust and obedience to that guarantee assured by Christ.

While it seems I am hammer Alex, I am not - I wish I could hammer the invisible spirit that keeps the Catholic churches apart - day after day - week after week - decade after decade - didn�t I see that spirit in a movie where it kept singing �Time is on my side� as it passed from unwitting person to unwitting person down trough the eons? We have all felt it - we have all spoken its words and done its deeds.

The pity is - that even if someone here were to read my message and it dawn on them what great injustice we do to each other because of our habitual fallen nature - within a short time these false "truth" will do another round on this board, as if it were the first time ever discussed, even as my words in this message (a plea) disappears like tears in the rain.

RayK,

Brilliant! Your words, especially on what our Divine Liturgy refers to as "the Edenic Paradise," ring true and in accord with the Armenian Church Tradition as well.

Sorry if anyone gets a headache but I have a question -- don't the "East" and "West" agree on the fact that a person's soul, prior to the general resurrection of the dead, has a 'state of being' in which it exists? It seemed as if Alex's post was saying that the "East" believes that a person's soul is in some sort of 'waiting' state as if 'neither here nor there' prior to the general resurrection of all of us -- which gets me a bit confused - isn't it the same theological conclusion, whether one is of an 'Eastern' or 'Western' bent ...? or is it truly 'different' ?
Sincerely
and slightly puzzled,
with best wishes to you all,
C of S

To repeat Alex's point - the hymns and canons of the Church are repleat with many references to the Toll-houses. Much of the problem in this discussion stems from too literal an interpretation of very literal Byzantine terms and images - whether they are references to hellfire or toll-houses.

They must be taken in the context they were written and within the Tradition also. the modernists within Orthodoxy often try to apply some sort of German scholarly form criticism to faith, scraping away what they consider to be centuries of accretions. This is what traditionalists saw as the problem in the 'Parisian' theologians approach to Orthodoxy. They took the faith, piety and practice of the Church outside its Orthodox context, its patristic context and the context of a LIVING faith. We are lead to some sort of renovationism which thinks it knows better than the fathers and the Tradition of the Church trashing ideas which held fast until the neo-Orthodoxy of the modern world - weighted with protestant baggage - started picking fault.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear RayK,

Certainly, we cannot equate "place" with "state."

But clearly, the Latin theologians at the Council of Florence taught a distinction between heaven, hell and purgatory as states.

It was this distinction that the Greeks repudiated as a recent Latin invention.

You are entitled to your Latin bias, a bias that you expressed when you deprecated the Greek theologians and fathers who were present at that council.

The pride here is your own, forgive me, as neither you nor I are entitled to pass judgement on EITHER the Latin or the Greek fathers who were at that Council.

The doctrine of the Roman Church, as expressed in numerous times, has been clear. One must believe that "there is a Purgatory."

What else can that mean except that it is a state, fine, but different from heaven or hell?

The experience of purgation, cleansing - yes that is in the Bible.

But is purgatorial fire in the legalistic sense the later Roman Church interpreted it as?

I grew up with indulgences, temporal punishment, purgatory etc.

To me it seemed one big legalistic twist on a simpler message of the Gospel and of the Fathers.

One may philosophize on the basic Roman doctrines, but do you truly believe that most Roman Catholics understand Purgatory to the level of mystical extrapolation as you have presented?

In a number of points, you come closer to the Greek understanding of eschatology.

And that is fine.

When we come to the Holy Father, let us remember that the Pope is very conversant with Eastern theology.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Holy Father affirmed the traditional Eastern doctrine of Original Sin, over and above the Augustinian notion.

His view of purgatory as he stated is simply bringing it into a new synthesis with the Eastern tradition - and I accept his explanation wholeheartedly and he is to be congratulated on opening up so much to the Eastern point of view.

What the Pope is teaching is NOT the traditional RC medieval notion of purgatory.

What the Pope is teaching is a Patristic view that is entirely consonant with what the East has always believed.

Alex

Alex... in two years I have only passionatly disagreed with you - once. I disagree with my wife monthly - have I ruined any chance of leaving her and proposing to you?

In a number of points, you come closer to the Greek understanding of eschatology.


If you cease insisting upon your own definition of my words and try to understand what they mean to me and how I am using them - I shall come even closer .

-ray