www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why BC's and RC's don't always find common ground

I was one of the early ones to post on this thread, and I played the role of a partisan BC (which I am, I guess). However, the whole exchange was fruitful for me. I noticed that people tended to promote what was good and beautiful in their own rites/parishes. That's to be expected and is actually an attractive thing to me since I am more confederate than federalist in ecclesiology. To this point, I did notice some common themes and I was wondering if the participants would like to consider them? First, it seems that most people, despite other differences, tended to see parish size as a key issue and most of these tended to favor a smaller parish. Do others agree? Second, I think I detected a strong emphasis on the power of good liturgy. I noticed that when RC posters defended the goodness of their experiences, they did not refer much to liturgical experiences, but to other strengths of their parishes. I noticed that the BCs and the Orthodox more readily spoke about the centrality of the Liturgy. That difference really struck me. Also, I have been impressed to date by the number of people concerned to prevent overgeneralizing on these matters. I am comfortable using generalization, not because I think it is a literal representation of reality, but because a measurement of net impact of an idea/experience/tendency, etc. is, despite potential pitfalls, still a very useful tool.
K

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Glad to hear your opinion!

Let me announce with all sincerity that you are my brother! Separation is just temporary in God's time.

In Christ and His Holy Mother,

Paul

Orthodoxy also allows for an immense diversity, with an incredible richness, a multiplicity of spiritualities and cultural expressions. It is not accurate to make such a claim only for Catholicism.

Some of the points that Dan has made are accurate but the above one is not. There are those in the Roman Catholic Church who fit such a description, but the evidence just doesn�t support such a blanket accusation.

It is fair to state that Roman Catholics think we are weird or quaint. I used to think that this was primarily because they just didn�t know us, or anything about the way we go about being Christian. I am thinking now that this might be because there is still a residual understanding within Roman Catholicism that the Roman (Latin) Catholic experience is the normative Catholic experience and that the other ways of being Catholic must be judged by this standard. Officially this is no longer the case but I think that the lack of education is allowing for misunderstandings to be carried on to new generations.

Roman Catholics do tend to have a different sense of community than we Eastern Christians do. I see three elements here: 1) Roman Catholic parishes are usually fairly large and tend to resemble little cities rather then the church on the corner 2) Eastern Christian parishes tend to be tiny by Roman Catholic standards and can be a place where everyone literally knows everyone else (I have also seen a similar sense of community in small Protestant parishes) and 3) Eastern Christian parishes still are usually ethnically organized, and seem to wall themselves off from the rest of the word.

People have expressed some interesting thoughts but I think it keeps coming back to the size of the parish. The Roman Catholic parish in my neighborhood (with 10,000 members) has a wonderful sense of community but it is different than that of my Byzantine parish (with 700 members). In my experience, smaller Roman Catholic parishes tend to have a sense of community that is more similar to what we Eastern Christians have. I have experienced this in a tiny coastal New England parish where I have vacationed for many years. Even though I only visit the parish 4 or 5 Sundays each year (during the off season when there are no tourists), there are certain people who remember me and greet me as if I am a local and part of the parish. I have always been quite impressed by their hospitality.

Brothers and sisters:

One thing that has always impressed me about the Eastern Christian parishes I have been privileged to attend is the sense of welcoming that they give to the stranger.

Perhaps I have been very fortunate, but almost without exception I have been greeted at each parish and invited to come back and become part of the community. Sometimes it has been an usher, sometimes the person sitting next to me, sometimes the priest.

It has said to me, nonverbally, that there is in that place an affirmation of my humanity like Christ Himself gave to those He met. It also reminded me of the Gospel passage where Our Lord reminds us that whatever we do to the least of His brethren, that we do to Him.

Fortunately, too, the current Latin parish to which I belong has had a similar culture of welcoming people. The priest assigned--two pastors ago--was in this parish for about 22 years and made it a place where anyone could come, no matter what his/her status and receive welcome, support, and encouragement to grow. We still do that and I hope that we continue to do so. My family came on this parish when my daughter was born and the priests went to visit my wife daily in the hospital when our own pastor, at the time, couldn't be bothered.

So I encourage you, my brethren, to continue to be the welcoming communities that I have experienced you to be--even here on this forum.

Christ is in our midst! He is and always will be!!

BOB

Nice of you to visit from time to time. Perhaps, instead of attacking and running you might help us understand how exactly what I've said is a "caricature". Moreover, perhaps you can explain how "obligation" does not mean "obligation". I enjoy giving my sacrifice to Christ in response to His sacrifice for me. I don't need to be forced to do so. Perhaps, obligation has a meaning that eludes me. It wouldn't be the first time. Nevertheless, if that is true would you kindly clear up my confusion?

"ZT who has been Catholic a long time and knows from personal experience how unfair these caricatures are."

Dan L

Administrator,

You are probably right that I was overly general in my blanket statement about RC's wanting to be Protestant. Perhaps I've allowed my experience to cloud my thinking. There are some wonderful traditional and very large Roman Catholic parishes that are anything but Protestant. Sadly, I've not found any in my particular area. St. John Cantius is one example of a glorious Roman Catholic Church. It is a lovingly warm parish but it is as traditional in its liturgy as our own Annunciation Parish.

The denuding of so many Roman Catholic Churches of most of its iconography must bring great sorrow to many Roman Catholics. This iconoclasm is what I meant by the Protestant tendency I've seen in a majority of RC parishes I've visited.

To all who are offended by my careless comment I beg your forgiveness.

Dan Lauffer

Dan:

Is it possible that the reason that we Catholics of whatever stripe often don't find common ground is that we're simply human?

It's been my experience that in any given parish there is a wide variety of opinions about any subject that one can raise--from what is good art or iconography to how the collection should be taken up to whether the Liturgy should be served in its complete form or shortened to the bare minimun, to whether we should sing or not. Then people vote with their feet if another parish is just the opposite.

Now take that same lack of complete common vision to the wider field of one sui juris church to another. I think that we've got some common ground in that we at least have parallel liturgical practices. If they are not identical, given their development over many centuries apart from each other, that should not be something we hold against each other. At least we have made some beginning in some quarters of respect for the other's differences and trying to understand them. That is something we can at least be thankful for together even if it is not universal.

In Christ,

BOB

My Roman Catholic parish has about 150 members, and we all know each other jes' fine!

I guess that's what happens when you-uns is a Cat'lick in the Bible Belt, where (until the recent influx of Hispanic immigrants) Catholics made up less than 2% of the population!

Blessings,

ZT

Friends,

I write this as a friend of the Roman Catholic Church. It is not meant as an attack but as a serious concern. As I've stated before my experience has been that in most of the RC parishes I've visited iconoclasm reigns supreme and there seem to be few differences between my Protestant experiences of worship and my Roman Catholic experiences of worship. Here is what my wife experienced today.

I was not able to attend worship this morning. She attended a local Roman Catholic Church. This is what she experienced per her account.

1. There was no place to light candles for devotion or intercession.

2. Virtually no one sang any of the hymns.

3. Women dominated both the numbers in the pews and at the altar. The only male near the altar was the priest.

4. The sermon was forgettable and brief and the priest was through with the service of the Word at the 35 minute point. Despite this fact a majority of the congregation was looking around wondering when the Sunday obligation would finally end.

5. Communion was distributed by "Extraordinary" ministers though none were needed.

6. People left immmediately upon receiving Eucharist though they had only been there 35-36 minutes.

She made other observations but I think this summarizes the situation. This kind of experience has been standard fare in most RC Churches I've visited. There are some exceptions but very few in our experience. It is one of the main reasons we did not convert to Roman Catholicism. It is a shame but it is.

Dan Lauffer

Next time try Holy Cross in Joliet.

Greetings Dan!

I hope all is well with you.

My heart cries out Dan because I know what you say rings true to my experiences as well. Before becoming set on this Byzantine trajectory I was a sojourner among Roman Catholic parishes for many years. I actually have compiled a pretty good spreadsheet with mass times for the many parishes within reach of my apartment.

There are many parishes that do a great job and still more that exhibit all the symptoms you detail. For all the high calling in Latin theology, the wisdom of the Fathers and Doctors of the church, the tradition, the many saints and a Patriarch like JP II there is still this problem at street level. It seems like a runaway train.

Sometimes I take in mass at the Abbey. There is a world of difference there and the Benedictines have their own way which, even in all it's simplicity has a spiritual aura about it that says softly "We love You, Lord. We adore You and worship You, we give You thanks and glorify You!". The Abbey is proof to me that the Novus Ordo CAN be done well in English.

We have no extraordinary eucharistic ministers and no kneelers! The monks and all of the guests bow at the consecration instead of kneel! And there is no race for the door.

In all fairness I have visited a few Byzantine parishes that are nothing to brag about either. The Roman Catholics (of which I also am one) do not have a monopoly on bad liturgy.

I wish you could have been to the parish today, it was beautiful. We had a double baptism today and the liturgy was magnificent. I couldn't keep my eyes dry. Father has said we have 41 children under the age of six and he praised the young parents for their commitment to Christ, the church and the spiritual well-being of the children!

Shalom
Michael

Lawrence,

I will try Holy Cross next time should the occasion arise. What makes it special, if I may ask?

Michael,

I really do wish I could have been there. Sorry to say, I will be absent next Sunday as well.

Did Father speak with you about the possibility of sharing a room in Uniontown?

Dan Lauffer

From what I've heard Holy Cross is the most traditional parish in the Diocese of Joliet, and occasionally has the Latin Mass.

Dan, I apologize most abjectly to you (and to all) for my pernickety hissy-fits in this thread.

Your experiences in RC parishes do sound discouraging. I do think it must vary a lot from diocese to diocese.

If anything, our diocese is "trending traditional" more and more all the time. I probably attend the most liberal church in our vicariate -- the pastor's an elderly Jesuit whose heart is in the right place but whose theology can be kind of fuzzy sometimes. Yet even we, when we built our new church building (desperately needed), installed the Tabernacle front and center (sorry, it's a Latin thang :p ), installed kneelers (ditto), put up a gorgeous old-fashioned Crucifix and old-fashioned Stations of the Cross, etc. (We don't have money to do much else at this point -- we're a small rural mission.)

Moreover, we just got a new bishop-elect who's one of the holiest, saintliest, most conservative, most fervent, most orthodox, most Eucharistic priests I've ever met -- Father Peter Jugis. Glory be to God!

You need to move down South heah, boy!

Blessings,

ZT