www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Romanian Latin-Rite Catholics, what's their origin?

Hello

What's the origin of Latin-Rite Roman Catholicism among ethnic Romanians?

I used to believe most Catholics from the Latin-Rite in Romania are of German and Hungarian origin but I've noticed that in the Eastern part of the country (Iasi, Galati) there are many Romanians who are Latin-Rite Catholics and who are not related to Hungarians or Germans.

They're not recent converts from Orthodoxy, their families have been Catholic for long time and from the Latin Rite (The Uniat Church did not exist in the East of the country).

1. Not long ago, I read that there's a controversy between Catholics and Orthodox as some claim that Romanian Christianity was originaly Catholic (Latin-Rite) and that the Byzantine Rite was brought by Bulgarians and Greeks.

Could these Catholics be the remnant of those Christians?

2. Predominantly Orthodox peoples like the Bulgarians have a small ethnic Catholic minority (adding that in Serbia the Bulgarian minority is Roman-Catholic and not Orthodox). History states that they are descendants of Bogomiles and Paulicians (and probably assimilated Turkic peoples) and were converted by Jesuits.

Could this be the same in Romania?

I have been searching for info on the RCs of Romania. It seems that most of the RCs are from the German and Hungarian minorities. It is quiet possible that some of these groups may have moved into the East of the country as merchants etc. These may have been followed later after the reunification of the country by others from these groups in the west of the country. I think there would be very few Romanians in the RC.

Yes the RCs in Bulgaria seem to be non Orthodox and regarded as non Muslims by the Turks who were converted. The latter would have been important when the death penalty applied to converting Moslems.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Friends, It does seem historically proven that Romania was Christianized in the Latin form by missionaries from Rome. In the eleventh century, the already Christianized Romanians became vassals of the Bulgarian empire which imposed Byzantine Christianity. Does this square with what you think? Vito

I think I read that in the new Orthodox History series.
Stephanos I

Glory to Jesus Christ!

There were Latin missionaries working in the region pretty early, but I really don't think that is where we would find the answer. The explanation is far too simplistic. They were not active long enough to evangelize the entire Romanian nation, and they would not have used the "Latin Rite" recognizable as such today. I would look for traces of those communities in Orthodox parishes today if anywhere.

By way of example Poland also had Byzantine misionaries active in the south from sometime after 866, but there was no way for them to evangelize the entire country before the Latin church became official in the land. Today the Polish Orthodox church (one million people) largely has other historical origins that have a much stronger realistic claim, but the Roman Catholic church in Poland has some interesting markers betraying an eastern origin still.

The tendency is for communities from the eight, ninth and tenth centuries to eventually lose their peculiar qualities and practices and blend in under a local bishop. Communities from earlier than that would not likely survive at all in such remote areas.

My quess would be that this Romanian Roman Catholic phenomenon is a case of ethnic assimilation. Just as many BC in the USA these days (after a mere 100 years) have "American" names through intermarriage and converts (I can think of English, Irish, Italian, Polish, Spanish and German names masking a Ukrainian or Slovak family tree) I think the same is probably true of these ethnic Romanian congregations who seem to be most obvious where the Hungarian and German ethnic presence is least evident. Let us remember also that most of the resident Germans from the area would have probably left for Germany after WWII, but German tradesmen would have probably been active in the region for hundreds of years prior to that.

These folks could also be descendants of conversions during:
-1- The Polish or Hungarian dominance of Moldavia
-2- The Hungarian dominance of Transylvania (very long time)

Here is a map of Poland showing Moldavia as a fiefdom, most people are unaware of this part of history:
[Linked Image]

Here is another map showing half of Wallachia under Hungarian domination:
[Linked Image]

Finally, another showing Moldavia under Hungarian domination:
[Linked Image]
I love maps.

There was undoubtedly quite a bit of migrating around the country in several hundred years as well, people could wind up anywhere taking jobs building railroads in the nineteennth century for the Turks and Hungarians, or military and civil service occupations in any era up into the 20th century.

It is even possible that some of these people originated as Greek Catholics who switched to the Latin church in communist days, the Latins were more tolerated at the time.

+T+
Michael

Dear Hesychios, Thank you for providing this interesting historical information. Vito

I find it odd that Romania is the only country that uses a Romance language yet the prevailing Religion is Orthodoxy not Roman Catholicism like France, Italy, Spain, etc...

It is quite interesting to me.

The country was Dacia when the Romans arrived. The colony received settling immigrants from as far away as western North Africa and Spain, as well as Syria and other places. It seems the 'lingua Franca' was Latin by default.

Early Romania probably has parallels to the United States. Around Chicago it is interesting to watch Poles, Haitians and Lebanese having a conversation in English at the Chinese buffet.

In any case, when the Faith was spreading to places like Gaul and Dacia (first two centuries probably) I don't think the rites were differentiated in anything like the way we know them today.

+T+
Michael

I was under the impression that there was some heavy colonisation in the Dacia region in the short time it was within the boundaries of the empire. This would account for the language issue. As for the area being part of the Orthodox world today I think it would have grown into that identity, due to the proximity of the place to Constantinople and being on the land route north to Rus.

ICXC
NIKA

God is wonderful in His ways and works! Glory to Him forever!

I speak Romanian and in the school I found easy to learn the Latin. But in my soul I am deeply Orthodox.

We have not a different religion. There is no prevailing religion, my brethren, in the Christianity. If we put an eye on the ethimology of the word religion, we might think that we are called to be pulled in the Kingdom of God through One Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Church.

This land was christianized even from the begininning. The first gate was Dacia Pontica, the actual Dobrogea. This part of Romania, near Pontus Euxinus, was also called Scythia Minor.

Saint Apostle Andrew was the apostle who brought the Evangelia of the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will write more info about my country. The history is not simplistic. Knowledge is important.

I live in Galati, there is a beautiful Romano-Catholic Cathedral and I use to enter and pray often for all my RC and Byzantine-Catholic sisters and brothers.

At about 200 yards of this Cathedral of St. Anton de Padua and Francisc d'Assisi, there is the Orthodox Cathedral of St. Nicholas.

Glory to the Most Holy Trinity for all! Amen and Amin.

In Christ, your far brother, Marian +