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Abdur,
Answer this one question for me please. If these actions are done by a few Muslim extermist then why is it law in Saudia Arabia that if you convert from Islam to Christianity you can be put to death? This law is on most of the books of the Muslim nations. How can a few be responsible when the countries laws are terriorist?
Do you think it is right if a Muslim man thinks Christianity is correct that He should be put to death? It has happened many times.
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Dear RC@work,
Did I EVER say anthing to you about this? I was simply commenting to what Ray wrote, plain and simple.
I have not been following this ecumenical thread at all of late, so I don't even know what was said before Ray's post to which I responded.
If, in any way, what I said to Ray, reflected badly or hurtfully on you, I certainly apologise and beg your forgiveness in Christ.
But I had not intention of doing ANYTHING like that, nor do I think I ever have on this Forum.
I am guilty of a lot of things, but not that.
Please accept my apology and my assurance that I will stay away from this thread for good.
Alex
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Orthodox Catholic,
I am sorry too! It is confusing 4 me because my name is Ray and well you get it...
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Originally posted by -ray:
Dear Abdur Islamovic:
Hello my friend.
My heart is with my Muslim neighbors. I have studied early Eastern and Mid-Eastern culture for many years in order to understand the context of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. As you might guess, this also gives me perspective on the rise of Islam. I am aware of the trials that God�s Providence puts our Muslim brothers through. As history marches on (and no man can stop it) cultures rise and fall and change like waves on the shore.
Dead fish float down stream. It is easier for a man to misunderstand someone not like himself, than it is to try to understand. I understand that the first rule of Islam is to love God and the second is the brotherhood of man.
In two weeks, I will be attending Mosque for the first time.
I am Roman Catholic, I also attend Orthodox Liturgy when I can, and I also have the goal to attend Synagogue this year.
There is but One God. But man uses many languages and so the face of God appears differently to men according to their culture - in as much as His Providence cares for all men ever created.
Mention me to God in your prayers� that I may be a good representative of Jesus whom God has seen fit to have me follow� and I shall pray for you that your dedication to Islam shine in the way God wishes.
There is nothing that fills my heart more than to stand with my Jewish and Muslim brothers and together, raise silent hearts to the unknowable nature of God who created us - that same unknowable nature of the Father of us all.
-ray Hello to you, dear friend and servant of God. Thank you for your gentle words. I would love to pray for you and with you. Rhetorical "jihad" is nothing more than the striving of the ego; the obsession with winning and putting the next fellow in his place. I hate myself when I get involved in these long-winded sparring matches. What can I do? God's will be done. On the other hand, prayer is sweet surrender; the putting aside of the ego; and a service one can dedicate to God for man. Prayer is the great release and letting go of ego. I love it. Peace and tranquility, Abdur
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Dear RC@work,
Oh, I see how things got crossed, my Friend!
But in any case, "everyone loves Raymond" - both of you!
Alex
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Dear Abdur,
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim
And what about me, Friend, what about me?
Salaam Alekum,
Alex
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Originally posted by aRomanCatholic@Work:
Abdur,
Answer this one question for me please. If these actions are done by a few Muslim extermist then why is it law in Saudia Arabia that if you convert from Islam to Christianity you can be put to death? This law is on most of the books of the Muslim nations. How can a few be responsible when the countries laws are terriorist?
Do you think it is right if a Muslim man thinks Christianity is correct that He should be put to death? It has happened many times. There is the law on the books, and there is the law as it is actually practiced. I try not to confuse the two. Suadi Arabia, as far as know, does practice the sharia, or the conservative Islamic law that you cite. However, you are wrong in thinking that the majority of Islamic nations practice the sharia, and that is one of the complaints of the terrorists and radicals. Because most Islamic countries do not practice the Islamic law according to their standards, they consider us apostates. I believe they will find themselves complaining for many years to come, since most Islamic states do not adhere "letter for letter" to the shariah, but either do not practice it or practice it in a modified form. I am over fifty and I have never heard of a Muslim actually being executed for converting to Christianity, not in this day and age. But I suppose it has happened. However, it must not be a common practice. I certainly would have no stomach for the practice and I believe the majority of Muslims would agree with me. Truth is, the majority of Muslims are not radicals or extremists. They have better things to do with the lives God has given them than to waste them on lunacy. As it says in the Quran, life is sacred. Abdur
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Abdur,
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim
And what about me, Friend, what about me?
Salaam Alekum,
Alex Dear Alex, I took it for granted that you knew you were my chosen brother. On the other hand, never take your best friend for granted! Thank you for reminding me. Abdur
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Dear Abdur,
Thank you for your kindness and for the privilege of conversing with you on this Forum.
In case you are interested, the iconographer Robert Lentz has done an icon of Jallaludin Rumi on his Bridgebuilding Icons site.
God bless,
Alex
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Abdur,
Salamat rubbina Yasou'yettikoon alayka
First, I would like to quote what you said:
"I am over fifty and I have never heard of a Muslim actually being executed for converting to Christianity, not in this day and age. But I suppose it has happened. However, it must not be a common practice."
Ya azzizzy(Dear friend),
You are not the only Muslim that has blindness and deaf ears when it comes to Muslims converting to Christianity. This tends to be unthinkable in Islam and amongst the Muslims at large because they truly believe they have the golden eggs. I know personally people who have left Islam and they have spoken of the dangers that have threatened & discriminated their lives. However, they could not live in an Islamic society where they are the minority. You and I know why. As I have said in previous threads there is a mindset in Islam that is a potential danger. It may not be manifest amongst those who are pacificists but the overwhelming majority are in agreement in oppostition to pacifism. Your brand of Islam, Sufism, is not that prevalent to make any kind of impact on the rest of Islam. History has shown us that. Sufists are a persecuted if not discriminated bunch in the Islamic world. The majority of Muslims do not buy into Sufism because they will tell us that it is not practical and it's a soft-mushy-pacifist type of religion. I guarantee you that your Sufism will not find acceptance amongst the majority of Muslims, Sunni & Shia'. They will tell you that converted people are not embracing Sufism but Sunni Islam. Be honest with me, isn't it a fact that converts are embracing Sunni Islam and not Sufism? Also, do you believe that Sunni Islam works in conjunction with Sufism? Do you think that the majority of Islam accepts your denominations way of thinking? You spoke many times that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion which I am not doubting but that says nothing of Sufism.
Going back to what I was saying, the Islamic governments and nations do not make it public practice to reveal Muslim apostates unless they are ready for execution. That my friend is a fact. The Islamic "Final Solution" is to rid of Muslim apostates as mandated in the Quran. The rational behind this is that will hinder the growth & expansion of Islam. The spiritual cancer of the world. It can only be healed & stoped in Jesus' name.
I think that you are not the type of Muslim that is looking for trouble. You seek the truth as we all seek it. We are on a journey until His Kingdom comes. In the Kingdom, there is no war, hatred, discrimination but love. This is the Kingdom we hope to imitate now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Preaching the Kingdom of God was Christ's whole purpose. That was and is the Gospel, the New Testament, the Good News, the Injeel, the Bashara. His purpose was not the distribution of books. God knows how many times the Bible was destroyed and come back to life throughout its early years. But your average Muslim does not know this histroy nor do they care. True Christianity is not meant to be judged by people and the writings of nonbelievers but based upon its founder, Christ, and His Church. Tell me Abdur, why does the wast majority of Islam have no regard for early Christian history? I am speaking of the perspective of the Church. Why is not the word "Church" (Kineesa) mentioned in the Quran? I will tell you my perspective: it's because it seeks not to know or to disclose this hidden fact that the life of the Christian is in the Church. It is not soley in the Bible which our dear mislead Protestant brothers espouse. Life for us is in the Body of Christ, the Church which the Quran and Islamic societies have dismissed and ignored for 1400 years. We know what has happened to Christian societies in the midst of Islam especially our Churches. Many were converted into mosques in order to bury our Christian truths. We were the target of their evangelization with and without our approval as it is today and not vice verse. Islam has succeeded in so many ways in trampling over our Churches in order to snuff out our Christian lives by taking over our Churches and forcing us to become Muslims. This has occured over time and currently occurs in places like Eygpt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Serbia, etc. Can you be honest and admit to this unfortunate history of ours as Eastern Christians living in the midst of Islam? Attacking our Churches is attacking us and attacking Christ. I would expect some human decency as you would and fellow Muslims but the basic principals of "them against us" has to be tackeled and brought to submission even if that means countering & admiting to harmful Quranic verses which are said to be abrogated. Again, we have the problem of Quranic interpretation and no true authority. Anyways, looking forward to chatting with you.
bil-Maseeh
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Abdur,
Rum Orthodox has finally said what I have been trying to find the words to say.
God Bless!
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[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]
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Originally posted by Abdur Islamovic:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rum Orthodox:
Eleison imas, Kyrie, eleiison imas pasis yar apologias aporountes, toutin si tin ikesian, os Thespoti, e amartole prosphiromen eleison imas.
"Have mercy upon us, O God......"
[QB]Abdur,
Salamat rubbina Yasou'yettikoon alayka
First, I would like to quote what you said:
"I am over fifty and I have never heard of a Muslim actually being executed for converting to Christianity, not in this day and age. But I suppose it has happened. However, it must not be a common practice."
Rum,
I am not blind to the fact that Muslims connvert to Christianity-----Muslims convert to Christianity and Christians convert to Islam----but RC's question wasn't about conversion, but execution for converting.
As I previously posted, I have never heard of a convert being executed, "in this day and age."
"Your brand of Islam, Sufism, is not that prevalent to make any kind of impact on the rest of Islam. History has shown us that. Sufists are a persecuted if not discriminated bunch in the Islamic world. The majority of Muslims do not buy into Sufism because they will tell us that it is not practical and it's a soft-mushy-pacifist type of religion. I guarantee you that your Sufism will not find acceptance amongst the majority of Muslims, Sunni & Shia'. They will tell you that converted people are not embracing Sufism but Sunni Islam. Be honest with me, isn't it a fact that converts are embracing Sunni Islam and not Sufism?"
Yes, you are correct. Sufis are a minority. But it is my "brand" of Islam, so what difference does it make to me in an individual and pragmatic sense? But we continue to attract new blood from the West, although most of them are academics, so the pool of converts is limited.
" Can you be honest and admit to this unfortunate history of ours as Eastern Christians living in the midst of Islam?"
I certainly can and---if you are familiar with my posts---I already have done so.
"I would expect some human decency as you would......"
I also expect human decency from Christians in reference to the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia and other Balkan countries and Indonesian Muslims by Christian gangs.
You see, it works both ways and that is a fact many Christians would rather ignore. And the slaughter of Sufi Muslims by Russians in Chechyna continues. But then, the Sufis are just "terrorists', right? No, they are freedom fighters who have been trying to win their liberation from the Russian invaders for almost 200 years. That is a fact that Christians would turn a blind eye and deaf ear to. So, you see friend, you can't have it just one way. But my personal experience has been that at least some dogmatically driven Christians do not believe that Muslims are truly human, but just so much trefa to be sacrificed in the name of theological correctness.
Speaking of persecution and slaughter, the real victims and martyrs of persecution in the last decade of the twentieth century were the Slavic Muslims of Bosnia: 200,000 of them were slaughtered by the Croat and Servian Christians, and the vast majority of the slaughtered were civilians. They didn't even spare the pets of the little Muslim boys they threw into pits and buried alive or starved to death in the same concentration camps they tortured to death their fathers and brothers in.
Now, this really brings home to me the issue of just who is and who is not civilized since I am of Bosnian descent and received---I suppose through my DNA---the gentle and tolerant Islam that is the "slava" of Slavic Muslims, (Sorry to be honest, but I am not a great admirer of your Arab people. In many ways, according to our Slavic culture, they practice barbaric customs.)
So, you see persecution is in the eye of the beholder. I will not go into any detail about the thousands of Balkan Muslim civilians slaughtered by Christians during the various Balkan wars of the last century. The point is, if you look closely, all of us have hands soaked in blood. From my experience, and as an historian of the Sufi Islamic cultures of Central Asia and the Balkans, I can see that the religion of Christianity is a barbaric presence in the midst of my people and has been the oppressor of our religious and national interests, i.e., our experience with Christianity is analogous to the experience of your people with Islam.
Many non-Christians (and not just Muslims) believe that Christianity is a violent and cruel religion because that is the historical experience of their people. Beig "blind and deaf" to that horrible reality and the violent history of Christendom will not make that fact go away. And just look at how much you hate one another! Visit the different Christian forums and the hatred between different groups of Christians is almost palpable! Christians have spent as much time...and blood...slaughering one another as they have the "infidels." (Maybe that is why the "infidels" have survived.)
No, I would say Christianity and Islam have this one thing in common: both have clearly shown a propensity (the historical facts cannot be denied) for violence and slaughter.
Gee....isn't it wonderful that we have something in common?
(And we wonder why the world is full of atheists and believers in alternative religions and gods, etc. What? Do you believe these people are stupid or heartless? Don't bet your dinars on it?)
But you will never admit to that because you believe YOUR religion is without blemish.
Your claims of moral superiority will not wash with me.
So, we are at an impasse, aren't way?
As it is recorded in your Divine Liturgy:
Wisdom, let us attend!
Abdur [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]
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Islam seems to always start their own problems. I am sorry but I do not have any sympothy for your causes. Islam started the problem in Palestine (everyone knows Israel belongs to the Jews - its in the Bible), Islam revolted against the Russian government so we have the Chechyna terrorist situation today, Islam started the Balkans war. Everywhere I personnaly see Islam I see war. Whether or not it is Iraq vs. Iran, Afaghanstain, Pakistan vs. India, Sudan vs. Christians, Iraq vs. Kuwait, Turkey vs. Greece, Saudia Arabia fighting quite war with money, Palestines vs. Israel, Indonesia vs. Christians, Terriost in the Phillipines (Muslims - probably sponsored by Saudia Arabia) vs. Christians, etc... there is war, war, war. I am sorry Abdur but I associate Islam with War. You know the fastest growing religion in the USA prisons is Islam. Go Figure?
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Originally posted by aRomanCatholic@Work:
Abdur,
Rum Orthodox has finally said what I have been trying to find the words to say.
God Bless! Thank God you have admitted to the historical fact that Christianity is a violent religion. I admire your candor. Peace.
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