www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Weeping Icons And Statues

I was curious if anyone had personally witnessed a weeping icon or statue. Their seems to be quite a large number of them in just the last 20 years, AND they appear to be occuring in equal numbers among both the Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Must be related to the great falling away.

Yes, I find that interesting. I read in a book about the life of Peter the Great, that they claimed that the monks would place vials of oil on the other side of the icon, below the eyes, and with the heat of the candles, it would overflow, and thus produce "tears". One theory.

I have never seen a weeping icon in person, only in photos and video. When I was a young child, I used to be fascinated by such things and was always curious to see one.

I think that most of these weeping or bleeding icons and statues are fakes, plain and simple. I do believe there are some authentic ones out there and throughout history, but it is all too easy for copycats to take some water, oil or blood and place it on an image. They are great attention grabbers and money-makers. I am sure some people have done it for this very reason. Others have more pious intentions, such as to make people wonder and think about God's miracles. The problem is that if they are found out, there is a loss of faith for many involved. It is best for the faithful to be cautious of all such happenings and not place too much weight in them. Our faith doesn't depend on these miracles, so better to be safe than sorry if you ask me.

Dave the pious skeptic :p

Yes, back in 88 when icons wept at Camp Nazareth, I had a friend there who brought tears back. I received an icon card that had been blessed with the tears and it wept on the feast of the Dormition. The most memorable thing about it was the scent, the most remarkable sweet fragrance, like the best incense and roses rolled together.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Back in the 1980's both the icons of Christ and the Theotokos on the iconostasis at St Mark Coptic Church in Seven Hills, Ohio were weeping oil. There was quite a bit about this in the local press. I was fortunate enough to visit this church on a number of occasions, and have a small bit of cotton dabbed in the oil 'tears'.

Perhaps the icons are moved to tears by the hideous statuary?
Incognitus

I've always marveled at the tendency of people to be so caught up in these phenomena. We want to go all over the place looking for "a sign." The best part is that so many today overlook the greatest miracle that human history has ever been a witness to and we take it for granted. Beside this miracle all the rest amounts to so little.

The miracle I refer to: the change by the Holy Spirit, through the prayer of a human priest, that makes mere human bread and wine into the life-giving Body and Precious Blood of the Savior; the food by which we will live forever, never hungering or thirsting again. The fact that the Lord lives within the community in the Reserved Mystery at the same time that He reigns at the Father's Right Hand on the Throne of the Cherubim is part of this miracle.

That's the only miracle I have time to give a lot of attention to.

In Christ,

BOB

I agree with you. These "miracles" can be very distracting at best. Though I'm not so sure that I would say they are all fakes. I just don't spend time on these things because, as was said earlier on, they aren't necessary, or even important for our salvation. They seem to be part of that entire apocalyptic body of belief that is so big these days. I don't mean to discount the second coming of Our Lord. Many of us long for that sight, but we know that before it happens, things will be very bad indeed. And also, many will be deceived by so-called miracles. Another good reason to focus on real spiritual Food from heaven.

I tend to agree with Theophan and SSV, but God knows what we are like...

Did just St. Thomas require a sign? Would we celebrate this each year if we were any better?

I have been witness to two weeping icons of the Theotokos (Cicero, IL; Resaca, GA) and one Myrrh streaming Crucifix icon (LaPorte, IN).

I do not feel that any of these were hoaxes or frauds. Would my faith be less if I had not seen them? I hope it wouldn't, but God in his infinite plan allowed me to see them.

Fr Deacon Lance, did I understand you correctly? Did you say that the holy card of the weeping icon itself weeped on the feast of the Dormition? That would be pretty amazing.
My only semi-experience with such phenomena was that some dear friends moved into a rural community founded by a guy who claimed to have locutions of the Holy Virgin after he was the custodian of a small, canonically irregular Orthodox Church in Barberton Ohio which featured a weeping icon.
To make a long story short, the guy -an ex-con- ended up taking off with one of his follower's wives, and the last I heard of him he was arrested for some sort of conspiracy involving Muslim terrorists!
The whole experience did do a lot of good in the lives of my previously gullible friends...

I think it has a lot to do with how you choose to define the word "miracle." I recall a story of a weeping painting some years ago that was investigated. It was discovered that a fire sprinkler line in the ceiling of the church, some distance away from the painting, had developed a leak. This leak dripped onto just the "right" roof joist to allow the drips to flow to just the "right" knot in the wood of the joist, where they dripped down onto just the "right" area of drywall and migrated over to just the "right" nail hole... etc., etc., etc... until the drips finally emerged as though eminating from the tear duct of the painting.

Mystery solved and "miracle" exposed, right? Well, in my humble opinion, I believe that the extrordinary string of "just the right" coincidences that allowed this spectacle to occur in the first place is, in and of itself, pretty miraculous, and I choose to believe that "Someone" had a hand in guiding those drips, for whatever purpose, to their ultimate destination. Pretty miraculous, if you ask me...

Now, I know that the Church does, in fact, have a rather rigid definition of what constitutes a miracle, and certainly something like this example does not qualify. As a person of faith, hoewever, you just gotta look at those drips and coincidences and say to yourself, "Wow! How cool is THAT!"

While I have the utmost contempt for those who perpetuate hoaxes of a spiritual nature, I still believe that some of these occurences are undoubtedly true, and it cannot be denied that in some of these incidents, much good has resulted. Stories abound of people who returned to the church after many years absence, others become more devout, and in a few cases their have even been reported miraculous healings.

I have witnessed two in my lifetime.
The first was at Tarpon Springs in Florida.
(My honest opinion was that it was genuine)
The other was in Blanco Tx (although experiencing a true sense of holiness in front of the icon) I would conclude that it was fraudulent.
Stephanos I

Since it's so easy to fake a weeping icon or statue, and so few have ever proven to be true, I find it difficult to believe that God would perform that particular type of miracle anymore. I'm not saying it never happens but what would be the point if most people were (rightly) skeptical about it?

There was a priest in Virginia some years back who made several statues cry; and he also had the stigmata. However, when I first knew of him he was a seminarian with an elaborate comb-over. When he was getting a lot of attention for his "miracles" his photo was in the paper and he had an impressive head of hair. That's all the discernment I needed: if a guy's hair is faked his miracles are rendered dubious indeed.
I don't know what ever became of him...

Iconophile,

The icon card was of the Mother of God and Child by Photios Kontoglou which had been anointed with tears from the original weeping icon at Camp Nazareth. The anointing was done several days before and the anointing left only a small mark on the icon. Several days passed and on the evening of the Dormition getting ready to pray in my icon corner I noticed tears streaking from the Mother of Gods eyes. Visually it really wasn't that impressive a single tear from each eye quite small, it was the smell that really grabbed your attention. In fact my parent's when the returned from Mass that evening wanted to know who spilled perfume and this from downstairs. Many other both at Camp Nazareth and those who had icons anointed with tears from the original had this occur as well.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Theist Gal

You state:"I'm not saying it never happens but what would be the point if most people were (rightly) skeptical about it?"

That is the point, the Orthodox are not skeptical but nor are they apparition chasers. When these things happen the people rejoice and some will make a pilgrimage but it is taken in stride. It is seen for the gift that it is but it is also recognized that the Holy Mysteries are a greater gift. None of the sensationalism, hysteria, or media grubbing that all too often occurs with modern Roman apparitions or "miraculous images of the Virgin in water stains" accompanies these miracles.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

When my grandfather was a priest under the Soviets, an apparition of the Mother of God appeared on his parish's window - another of the Last Supper appeared elsewhere.

People immediately began pilgrimages to the image, with bus-loads coming from all over.

My grandfather was placed under arrest by the Soviet police who charged him with fraudulent activity to raise money!

But Fr. John insisted that the image only resembled a religious image - he said it was being caused by the process of "opalization" as another skeptical priest had suggested.

Eventually, he was let go and the image disappeared totally.

However, I know that there are such images in other places in Europe on glass - and at least one that I've heard of is venerated as a miraculous shrine.

Alex

Lviv Basilians Offer Statues of Mother of God to All Regional Centers

15.03, [12:39] // News // UGCC Info


Lviv -- The Order of St. Basil the Great in western Ukrainian Lviv and the Dmytro Vitovskyi Sich Organization have offered to erect a statue of the Mother of God in every regional center of Ukraine. This news was reported by Radio Lvivska Khvylia ("Lviv Wave) on 12 March 2004.

The Basilian Fathers and Sich are planning to do fundraising to make the statues and then present them to all Ukrainian regional centers. Regional administrations will only have to find places to locate the statues. According to Fr. Yosafat Vorotniak of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, one of the initiators, this idea has been supported by all Ukrainian churches, except for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

According to the organizers, currently statues to the Mother of God are in Lviv, Kherson, Yalta, Kyiv, Vinnytsia, and Odesa. It is expected that the next city to have such a statue will be eastern Ukrainian Kharkiv.

Source: Radio Lvivska Khvylia

A good observation on your part.

Message - delievered - in an unusual way and without the use of extra ordinary means.

And your responce is well also. "Wow - look at how He did that!"

I don't know who else go the message - but it is clear that you did.

-ray

Most Catholics have some personal experience but keep it private. I was somewhat surprise, during the years I researched these things - at how many Roman Catholics have personal experiences that they do not generally speak about. It is common RC personal experience either in way of being aware of some natural event (which is far too coincidental to be anything else by the hand of God) or some out-right phenomena.

In such a large membership base as the RC it is inevitable that some events will be genuine and some not - that some will chase these things while others do not.

It is kind of like the �1% rule�.
1% of 100 is 1
1% of 1000 is 10
And 10 is greater than 1

So automatically many more Catholics chase apparitions because there are simply - many more Catholics than Orthodox. Many more Catholics also do not chase apparitions - than Orthodox do.

It boils down to - many more Catholics.

I find the best way to be about it is that if it comes into one�s life in some way it is best to say �Thanks be to God.� and if one never bumps into anything like this it is best to say �Thanks be to God.�

It certainly is a part of the spiritual life that is very misunderstood but none the less God occationally uses for his own reasons when he thinks it wise to do so.

I am just adding to the discussion. I have no criticism nor am I pretending I know all about it.

-ray

Dear Ray,

The issue of why Catholics go after apparitions more than the Orthodox has been, at times, dealt with by Eastern theologians.

One article I came across on this subject in university was by a Greek-Catholic author (he attended St Volodymyr and Olha parish in Chicago - Eugene Ivankiw).

The laity of the Eastern Churches have had, by far, a great historical and integral connection to the public liturgical offices of the Church in their daily prayers.

One reason for this is that the services have always been in a language that they could understand i.e. Slavonic and later the national languages.

But, in the West, the laity, according to this view, have tended to be alienated from the liturgical services, as these were in Latin and the uneducated simply could not access them.

This and a greater clericalization in the West, among other things, led to the phenomenon of a "priestly spirituality" and a "lay spirituality."

The priests/monastics prayed and otherwise fully participated in the public prayer of the Church - the Mass and the Divine Office.

The laity developed a spirituality that tried to closely approximate the offices. Thus, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary as a substitute for the Divine Office, the Rosary, both Pater Noster and Hail Mary, as a substitute for the Psalms.

And there grew a great devotion among the laity for private revelations and miracles, as if to confirm that God was truly speaking to them as well, that the laity were not on the periphery of the Church etc.

Paraliturgical devotions were eventually allowed by the Latin Church and even blessed. They drew the laity to Church and excited devotion where the Divine Office and the Psalms did not.

The East also has many instances of miraculous occurrences associated with Saints and Icons of the Mother of God.

But these are always immediately integrated into the public, liturgical life of the Church.

Saints are glorified for veneration in the Church and icons are likewise glorified and assigned feast-days etc.

The faith of the Eastern laity is informed by the rich theology contained in the liturgical tradition already - not by communications received via private revelations or miracles. The Eastern laity are very conversant with the liturgical offices that they not only attend in Church, but bring into their homes.

Akathists, a public liturgical service, have been adapted, along with Canons and Molebens/Supplicatory Services, to the needs of the laity so that any layperson may use them.

Saying the daily Offices is something expected of the laity in the East in a way it is not in the West, together with other primarily monastic practices like the Jesus Prayer.

In a sense, miraculous occurences involving Icons are almost always experienced IN CHURCH by the East or if they are experienced at home - the icon is immediately brought to church for veneration of the entire Church.

There is a wonderful union of public and private in terms of worship in the East that I, for one, just don't see in the West.

And I think this can explain why the West and the Latin laity have such a tremendous fascination with private revelations and miraculous occurences.

Alex

Dear Lawrence,

In response to your original question; yes.

As my circle tends to be the Albanian and Greek Orthodox parishes, that is where I saw the two weeping icons.

The first was at St. Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church at 2701 Narragansett Ave. across from "the Brickyard" in Chicago (I see that you are in Illinois). This parish is under Bishop Ilia (Katre) and the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America [within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople].

I drove in for three hours from a project on the Mississippi (Savanna Army Depot), but it was worth it.

When I visited, this icon of the All Holy Theotokos and Christ was no longer flowing profusely, but while it had, an estimated one to two million people passed through.

I already had a personal connection since my family from Boston had gone there when an aunt was dying of cancer in order to annoint her with the oil. It strengthened her, but she later fell asleep. I've carried a paper reproduction of the icon in my wallet now for ten years.

I was blessed to visit again a few years later while in Chicago. The Church is covered with iconography in the true Byzantine tradition. I highly recommend a visit.


The other weeping icon was a paper one that had miraculously survived a house fire in Worcester, Massachusetts during which a handicapped believer perished. The priest placed the icon on a stand in St. Mary's Dormition/Assumption Albanian Orthodox Church on Salisbury St. in Worcester where it gushed oil inside of its frame. This parish is under Bishop Nikon (Liolin) of the Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America [within the jurisdiction of the OCA]. Veneration was kept low key. I've visited St. Mary's frequently and seen the icon, but it wasn't weeping.

They say that God reveals himself to those who need His revellations the most. Sometimes we may begin to think that He has revealed himself to others because their faith is weak and that He hasn't revealed himself to us because our faith is strong. But then I remember...Perhaps He is revealing Himself to me, but like the stubborn "...they have eyes but see not, they have ears, but hear not..."

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Indeed, these miracles are needed for many folks...some whose faith has grown lukewarm, or whose faith always was lukewarm, and for those of us whose faith may be strong, but still need to know and feel the presence of God, His Most Holy Mother, and the saints, through these miracles.

My mother witnessed the famous crying icon of our Lady Theotokos in Long Island, N.Y. in the early 1960's. (This crying icon was even written up in the NY Times, at the time) At the time, although a baptized Orthodox, my mother was basically non-believing. The miracle helped jumpstart a very long journey of deep faith for her.

On the island of Aegina in Greece, the body of St. Nektarios reposes at the monastery he founded for nuns at the end of his life. In the small chapel on the grounds wherein lies his marble casket, visitors line up to put an ear to the marble. Many have heard, (including myself) the tapping of his cane against the marble from within.

It is amazing how many people are absolutely radiant, and verbally excited, after hearing the tapping. These good people exhibit the spiritual need many people have to experience a miracle.

In Christ,
your Orthodox sister,
Alice

Dear Alice,

I once met an RC priest who had a photograph of an apparition of Our Lady in the garden of the Martyrs' Shrine at Midland, Ontario.

He was on a walk through it when he saw Her (no mistake about it - she also held a large pair of beads with a Cross in her hands - could it have been a rosary? ).

And you could see right through her in the picture.

The priests there are "mum" on the entire situation and it was only by accident that I came across the photo. I wasn't supposed to see it . . .

At Zeitun in Egypt, the Mother of God was photographed above the Coptic Church there and the man who snapped the picture was immediately healed of an eye disease that was slowly making him go blind . . .

Alex

Regarding miracles, does anyone know of the "annual" miracle that happens at the Holy Seplacur (sp?) in Jerusalem? I remember reading a few years ago about one priest entering the tomb of Our Lord with an unlit candle and then coming out of the holy tomb his candle is lit and the light jumps around the crowds in attendance. This happens every year at Easter.

Does anyone know what I'm thinking about? And can anyone give a more discriptive explanation?

Dear Rose2,

The miracle which you are referring to is called the miracle of the 'Holy Fire'. Go to: www.holyfire.org [holyfire.org] (click on English) and read all about the miracle and impressions of the writer's own experience there.

Dear Alex,

I have seen that photo on the internet of the apparition in Egypt. It is truly amazing!

With love in Christ,
Alice

P.S. Alex, the RC priest who saw that beautiful apparition and photographed it must be very holy to have been given so great a gift!

Click here to see the apparition of our Lady in Egypt:

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

when you get to that sight, also click on 'How the Virgin Mary made her apparition at Al-Zitoun', and scroll down to see the most amazing REAL photo of the apparition!

Dear Alice,

ONe of our parish priests, now reposed, Fr. Yuri Fedoriw, travelled to Zeitun and interviewed a number of people who saw the Mother of God there for a little booklet he wrote and published in Ukrainian.

He said that even the Protestants of Egypt came to praise the Mother of God (an Evangelical Protestant leader was heard crying, "Holy Virgin Mary and Mother of Jesus, I see you!!").

And the Muslims unrolled expensive prayer rugs over the sand and sidewalks to stand on during their prayer at Her apparitions.

Even the President of Egypt (the one before Anwar Sadat, I forget his name) came one night incognito and saw the Virgin Mary of Zeitun - he then told the authorities to "leave the Christians alone."

Alex

Dear Alex,

...to your post, all I can say is 'very cool'!

Most Holy Mother of God, save us!

Alice

I have a vial of "100% pure myrrh" from the "wonderworking icon of Saint Nicholas". It is EXTREMELY fragrant. This icon has been in the possession of the ROCOR priest, Fr. Elias Warnke. Does anyone know if this flow of myrrh has been authenticated by the hierarchs of ROCOR? There seem to be some of the opinion that this entire event has been fabricated by Fr. Elias. Any thoughts?
Silouan, monk

Bless, Father Silouan,

If the Church has approved the miracle-working icon, it is no fabrication!

Alex

Two Lungs way back at the beginning of this thread posted a bit from the UGCC Site which has intrigued me greatly

I'm sure this is a very worthy thing to do - but as a Latin I am somewhat perplexed here.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since first finding my way to this Board and lots of , at times , seemingly unconnected bits of information have been stored away in my head and pop up at odd times. And , believe it or not , this was one of those times.

Statues ??? Forgive me please , I mean no offence , but aren't statues 3 dimensional representations of things that in Eastern Spirituality should not be represented in such a fashion ?

You have so many wonderful Icons why place a Statue in a public place ?

I cannot imagine a more Western/Latin Shrine than Lourdes - and in the original Ukranian Chapel there - inside the Rosary Basilica [ which is full of Latin representations of the Mysteries of the Rosary ] there are no Statues - just a beautiful Icon of the Blessed Virgin.

Please could someone explain why two organisations , and yes I know that one is a Religious Order, though I know nothing about the other group named, should want to erect a very Western / Latin STATUE .


Anhelyna - who is scratching her head over this one

Dear Anhelyna,

Oh, you have the Basilian Order confused with the Eastern Church!!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Nasser preceeded Sadat.

I'm enjoying this thread also. May we all be strengthened in our journey!

In Christ,
Andrew

Speaking of Easterners and Statues, here's my favorite one:

http://www.sandia.gov/ASCI/russia/Images/sightseeing/serafimstatue.jpg

Dave

Dear Alex ,

Do you really thinks so ???? :p

OK - so you have commented on one of the organisations - what about the other ?

And why do this - and everyone knows of my devotion to our Blessed Mother - so it's not that I am questioning the erction of a statue to Her - the question is why erect a "Religious' Statue at all ?

Anhelyna

Dave - it's a lovely Statue - but why a Statue ?

the increasingly puzzled Anhelyna

Evil western heretical influences I suppose.

Such statues are outdoors (not in church) and are more like religious monuments than icons or devotional images. I've seen numerous pictures of outdoor statues of saints erected by Orthodox. There is a statue of Saint Elizabeth the New-Martyr outside of her Love and Mercy Convent, Saint Vladimir overlooks the Dnipro, Saint Olga sits near the Ukrainian Orthodox Memorial Church in Bound Brook, NJ, in addition to a rather stern statue of Metropolitan Basil Lipviksky. My art teacher is currently making a bronze statue of Taras Shevchenko for a Ukrainian church in Syracuse, NY. I just don't think that an icon would have the same "monumental" quality.

Dave

Here's a photo of Metropolitan Vladimir of that capital city of Ukraine, the name of which incites riots on this Forum, blessing a memorial statue of Saint Vladimir:

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/0109_zimn/011001_3b.jpg

Dear Chtec,

Yes, you are quite right.

Outdoor memorial statues are perfectly fine even with the Orthodox - althought they wouldn't be used for liturgical services by them.

Bound Brook has a statue of (St) Basil Lypkivsky that is quite nice - if he's shown to be stern, you would be too if you had to live through what he did!

Also, the Balkan Orthodox often carve wooden statues of saints that are placed alongside icons of them - I've seen this numerous times and our Macedonian and Bulgarian Orthodox Churches have them.

There are also jewelled Reliquary-Statues of Orthodox Saints in Russia, one of St Dmitry Tsarevich and some others that are honoured and some are even taken in procession.

But if the Basilians and the Kozak group that is working with them are erecting religious memorial statues - do they intend on having liturgical services before them?

And, if so, what are they trying to prove?

As for the name of the capital city of Ukraine, I accept whatever transliteration the Administrator affirms . . .

Alex

I dunno, Alex, the more I look, the more I see evidence that even Orthodox will hold services near such outdoor statues.

While looking for the above photo of the St. Vladimir statue, I found other photos showing services by statues among the MP in Ukraine:

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/index.php?module=My_eGallery&do=showgall&gid=8&p=

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/gorka/gorka.html

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/don/don.html

Also, I believe that during the annual St. Thomas Sunday events in South Bound Brook they hold a Panachida for the repose of Metropolitan Basil by his statue. Here is a quote from this [ukrainianorthodoxchurchusa.org] article:

"Archbishop Antony led prayers at the graves of the other nine Ukrainian Orthodox Bishops interred at our cemetery and at the grave of the founder of United Ukrainian Orthodox Sisterhoods, Lesia Ivchenko, the monument to Metropolitan Vasyl (Lypkivsky) and at the monument to the women and children who perished in the genocidal famine, established by the United Sisterhoods."

Maybe it's just a Ukrainian thing?

Dave

Dear Chtec,

Holding services by the statues - yes, of course.

But the statues themselves would not, for the Orthodox, be a focus of any cult as icons would.

Alex

Andrew

I've never been inside St Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church, but I have driven by it. The icon there, The Guiding Mother of God began shedding what appeared to be tears in December of 1986. The Chicago area has had 2 other similar occurences in the last 20 years. In May of 1984, the 39 inch statue of the Rosa Mystica at St John of God RC parish also began shedding what appeared to be tears. The church's custodian tasted them, and said they were salty. The following month a young man with a history of mental illness, who actually called himself Ed "The Icon Killer" Kelly opened fire on the statue with a pistol while several people were nearby. The statue was hit twice, but no one was injured. The church's pastor, Father Raymond Jasinski said that a few years later when Kelly was released from a mental institution he had become a devout Catholic. In April of 1994 another icon (The Blessed Virgin and Mother of God) began shedding what appeared to be tears, at St George Antiochian Orthodox Church in the Chicago suburb of Cicero. In all three instances the occurences attracted massive crowds.

Ah... Now see how well I did at relaxing from this board? I think I had a full week or more of not being here� and I actually got some work done!

Alex, while I do see some reasonableness to your history of Roman Catholic devotions, someone might think that you were assuming that only the older devotions of the East are legitimate and Liturgical� while any newer devotions of the West (Novenas, rosary, the Way of the Cross, and 40 hours Devotion in front of the Eucharist) - being Roman Catholic and �substitutions� for the more legitimate devotions of the East.

I would not really agree with that. I would guess that this was not your intended meaning.

I would be wasting my time to try to explain to some Eastern members who call Roman Catholics �Latins� and assume anything �Latinised� to be a corruption. Note that I did not say you were one of them. I just decline to explain more on the RC devotions here and now.

The East has its ways and the West has its ways (some shared with the East) but I would not say that the further development of devotions in the West are substitutes for the older Eastern and more legitimate (if that is what you are saying). I think we should give some credit to the unique ways of the particular churches and rites and devotions through out the Catholic (universal) church and the different cultures it must express the gospel to. In my mind nether the East nor West has the 'better' devotions.

When it comes right down to it - I find that both the East and the West have a similar view and experience with private revelations� and the faithful of both vary in their reaction to such things. Membership in numbers being what it is - the percent of Orthodox or Catholics going to these things is about the same even if the East would prefer to believe its members do not and Catholics are out of control.

Again.. more Catholics go after apparitions and such because there are simply - more Catholics. A percentage in numbers is the fact and the reality of that.

Private revelation comes in many forms and not in apparitions alone. Even so, the East has its share of apparitions. Currently Mary seems to be appearing all around the Ukraine and thousands have witnessed. I do not know much about it yet and I am not really tracking it or anything. Who knows - I am not there to judge.

The East has also been well feed with private revelations. The Philokalia is sprinkled with moments of private revelation as also the Ladder of Divine Ascent by Climuacus and the lives of the desert fathers - to name just a couple of sources which have been instrumental in the formation of Eastern spirituality. The monastic clothing worn by the East was given - of private revelation. Whole monastic communities growing up around some charismatic desert father who was sought out by his reputation of as visionary and supernaturally aided spiritual guidance has often happened. How many times do we read in the desert fathers of some saint appearing to a monk and the lesson imparted to then given to us also�. this is also private revelation and an honored part of the Eastern traditions.

The private revelations of Simeon The New Theologian became - authority theology (similar to Doctor of the Church) and so many more. In more modern times the East is not devoid of such as Mother Macrious (spelling) or the Stigmatic of Syria, the Zeitoun or Asssuit apparitions, The Revelation of the Virgin to Archbishop John at the Orthodox Church of Mother of God Derjavnaya in Russia (1999), apparitions at Constantinople and Pochaiv in the Ukraine, and Litmanova of Slovakia� this has been only a partial list compiled in a few minutes but the Eastern and Orthodox church is not lacking in this type of heavenly food.

Icons tearing, bleeding, exuding oils - the Orthodox church is no stranger to these things and on a whole reacts to them in much the same way as Roman Catholics - the percentages are about the same. Some chase, some ignore, some rebuke, some gain faith.. Etc..

In the recent past of the Eastern Church in communist occupied countries - it would have been very dangerous to speak openly about private revelations - while it has not been so in the West. Eastern press and media is not like Western media - so these do not really go �international� like the sensational Western press likes to do.

If, you are in anyway suggesting that private revelation among Catholics has arisen as a substitution to the real life of the church - nope - not at all. Not in anyway. If the event is genuine it has the opposite effect - it plunges you into the core of the church.

Most of these things burn out very fast, usually, and really attract a very tiny percent to any kind of 'cultish' ways.

I remember seeing the hundreds of crutches lining the walls of the Basilica in Montreal, Brother Andre (you must know!) and they rather turn one right into the life of the Church and Mass - than substitute for it. You leave there with a dedication to regular weekly Mass and daily prayer.

The Catholic church does not, as a rule, just accept any and all private revelation - but in fact discourages them (in practice) This is fact. Very few are accepted and more goes into it than just the question of if the event was genuine or not. The RC authorities automatically distance themselves from any new events such as these - so as to steer way clear of appearing to approve of them. Strict measures are put upon any �seer� and note is taken if visionaries disregard the guidance of the church when it places restriction upon these people.

Of course not all such events are genuine, and even genuine events may go bad or be handled badly and no private revelation is necessary to faith. But if some event is genuine and handled properly it does become a gift of faith for some - and we should not belittle His gifts nor those to whom He gives them. But I can certainly understand the Orthodox hesitation to go to a Catholic �thing� and the liberty to go to an �Orthodox� thing. Apparently that �political� hesitation is more here in Roman Catholic country than in the older Eastern countries where there may be more Orthodox and Muslims going to �Catholic� apparitions than Catholics.

People will be people.

-ray

Dear Rayk,

You raise a number of great points, as per your usual!

It is true that we Easterners tend to give a knee-jerk reaction to "Latinization" and the "Latins."

(And you are right, I'm less inclined to be like that given that, who am I kidding, I AM Latinized! ).

The term "Latins" can be a term of offense, just like "Uniates." I prefer to use the term "Latin Catholic" rather than just "Latins" that has a nasty history in the East.

As you know, the term "Roman" is one that both Catholic and Orthodox Churches take for their own (the Orthodox use "Rhoum" or "Romaioi"(.

To be a "Roman" in the classical Christian sense means that one comes from the spiritual/cultural/religious achievement that is the Greco-Roman Christian world.

The Byzantine (or "New Roman") world called the West "Latins" to indicate that, as "heretics" they are now in possession of only a partialized identity.

Not to be outdone, the West, following the schism, called the Byzantines (again, this term means "New Romans") "Greeks" to likewise indicate that, having fallen from grace through separation from "THE Church" the Byzantines are no longer heirs to the "Roman" (i.e. Greco-Latin) true Church but only to a partialized ethnic "Greek" schismatic tradition.

I agree with most of what you wrote concerning the differences between East and West on the matter of revelations.

I agree with the view, however, that private revelations in the West have tended to play a much more prominent popular, devotional role in the spiritual lives of Catholic laity (especially in Latin America and Europe) than in the lives of the Eastern laity.

And I think the argument that says one reason for this is that the liturgical services of the Church were always more readily accessible to the Eastern laity than obtained in the West is a cogent one.

I wrote a paper on this topic to understand the role of RC devotions in the pre-Vatican and post-Vatican Churches. It is clear that the laity, at least in North America, of the RC Church have become much more connected to the public, liturgical life of the Church than previously.

The Latin language (the language of the educated), clericalization and other issues are what contributed to this.

It is also a cultural thing and the RC faithful of Latin America continue to focus on this much more than RC's elsewhere.

In the East, it was always common to find the Book of Divine Praises, the Bible and the Psalter and other liturgical texts in the private homes of the laity in a much more general way - and they were used for personal, lay worship as much as they were for priestly and monastic worship.

It was common, for example, among the Ukrainian Kozaks for them to know the Psalter by heart and to sing it incessantly even during their campaigns.

Those who were captured in battle continued to use the memorized Psalter and other liturgical texts as food for their devotional life in captivity.

I had no intention of being even remotely offensive in saying this or of raising eyebrows in any way.

Roman Catholic commentators on Vatican II are the ones who have said that the Fathers of that Council wished Catholic laity would return to the public prayer of the Church etc. and generally give the reasons I have for why they had originally fallen away from it.

Alex Roman

If you continue on this way - I might stop reading your posts.



Ah yes� encouraged to say the Divine Office and join with that Liturgical prayer as prayed by the entire church. I remember that.

I guess my contribution to the discussion was that the Good Lord seems to sprinkle these items around his entire church� and underneath the veneer of what theologians or press or anyone else may theory - people act like people will act� some go home better for the experience and some do not.

Don�t get me wrong Alex� although I often defend the Roman Catholic part of the One Catholic church - in here - by presenting it in the ways I understand it to be misunderstood by some (even Catholics themselves) - I do not give the human nature of the Church (any church) a clean bill of health. I joke (but am serious) that it is indeed a miracle that God seems to really guide the church - despite all foolishness of the humans he has put in charge! Since way back. I am very grateful that I am not in charge! I too - would act foolish and I would be crushed in heart at my inevitable failures and such. It is a good thing that Jesus does not need the church at all - to do his work. The church (in its human aspects) is a gift and not a necessity. The War has been won already! What remains is that each person now be formed to the extent that his free will allows God to do so.

We are lucky, in as much as you and I have no authority - the Good Lord will not hold us to account for our errors on these matters. You and I, we teach no one. We discuss and we talk from the heart. On the same hand we are free to fulfil everyman's need to speak what we may think we see as the truth and if another man recognise it - it is God's good will that it be so. God will sort out what is wheat and what is foolishness on our part. He hears a mix of what we intended, he desired to hear, and what God wants him to hear. As long as our heart is honset and good intention - the results are not our and and it is not too much of our buiness of how the Lord may draw the good from us - for another.

Anyways� I begin to digress as usual.

Your points are well taken in the context I now understand.

You are a good man Alex. If the Good Lord seems to allow you to be uncomfortable and often battered - He does so because He is forming you for himself. It is pressure which transforms coal into a diamond. If I can be poetic for a moment, I would say that the Good Lord has told me about you and He knows your good heart will not fail as he goes about His business of forming you. If I were a poet - that is what I would say.

A good spiritual director once said "Drop all regrets of the past and all expectations of the future. You know not where the wind has come from and you know not where it goes to. Taking care of today is enough for you."

Now that I have given you a compliment - please, continue to be yourself with me. I prefer an honest man to one who agrees with me.

-ray

Alex... I did not mean my last post to be condescending. It merely represents that I often find great value in listening to you even if I at first do not agree.

-ray

Dear Rayk,

Who said you were "condescending?"

Not I, Big Guy!

Benedicat Tuus Deus Omnipotens,

+ Pater + et Filius + et Spiritus Sanctus - Amen!

Alex

Bless!

Forgive me for being so slow to answer this!

Yes, I have e-mailed Archbishop Kyrill of ROCOR and received his answer:

Gaudior, who has been blessed to have been annointed several times by the myrrh from this icon, with prayers for your health

Dear Gaudior,

Who is Archbishop Kyrill and which is his diocese?

Thanks!

Tony

Tony, forgive me for being unclear!

Archbishop KYRILL, San Francisco and Western American Diocese. ROCOR

Gaudior, in clarification

Father Elias Warnke, before joining ROCOR was pastor on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in LaPorte, Indiana. This is where a Myrrh Streaming Crucifix-icon was revealed in (I think) 1994. I was witness to this, and was annointed with the myrrh. The UGCC priest from Mishawaka, IN, also went to visit the Icon and assisted Father Warnke with annointing people with the Myrrh

As the story goes, Fr. Elias and a number of parishioners wound up in a conflict over how much effort should be made regarding possible financial gains with the crucifix.

The disagreement ended up heated, and some parishioner threw a flashlight at Fr. Elias, hitting him in the chest. (He was wearing vestments at this time). The crucifix then stopped its Myrrh streaming.

From my understanding Fr. Elias left the UOA parish and started working with a Antiochian parish in Michigan City, IN. This parish was without priest for many years.

With the blessing of Met. PHILIP the parish transferred to the ROCOR.

Also from second hand reports, (I know people who have seen this icon, although I have not myself,) this icon is a copy from St. Isaac of Syria Skete.

Father Elias mounted a relic of St. Nicholas in the lower right hand corner of the icon. The relic is believed to be a fragment of skull from the forehead.

I heard from two unrelated sources that, a short time after Father mounted the relic in the icon, it started streaming Myrrh also. After initial "here we go agains" Father contacted Archbishop ALIPY in Chicago who instructed him to keep the story out of the press.

Archbishop ALIPY kept the icon with him in Chicago for period of time, I don't know how long. I also do not know if he made an "official" ruling on the authenticity of the myrrh streaming, but he definately did not forbid it's public veneration.

I have also heard of physical cures associated with the icon.

And, the myrrh streams from the forehead of St. Nicholas on the icon.

Please correct me if I have posted any inaccurate information. This took place almost ten years ago, and like I said, I received some of the information second handedly.

With best wishes to All!
Stefan-Ivan

Thanks Gaudior. I guess ROCOR has not updated their site [russianorthodoxchurch.ws] in a while as there he appears as bishop still. I searched the news to see if I could find news of him being made archbishop but couldn't. Do you know when this happened?

Thanks!

Tony

Dear Tony,

I have no idea, as on their website he most certainly DOES appear as Bishop, but in his e-mail to me, (copied, verbatim), he signed Archbishop. And so, I copied, Archbishop, on the assumption that he knows his own title.

Gaudior, who is not going to meddle with bishops.

Dear Tony,

Captions on this ROCOR Diocese News refer to him as Archbishop KYRILL...nice pics with Cossacks...

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/allmartyrsinmulano.html

Gaudior, hoping that allays any confusion

This is very interesting - the same Priest has twice been blessed by contact with 2 such very extraordinary happenings .

Not only has there been two of these happenings they have actually been in 2 different Jurisdictions - first Ukranian Orthodoxy and then ROCOR.

Truly God gives his Blessing and favours to all no matter what the jurisdiction.

Anhelyna

Further to the Coptic myrrh streaming icons I menitoned earlier, I've found that the parish has a web site and a page dedicated to the miracle [stmarkcoccleveland.org] .

Oύτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντίδα | Nemo nos diliget non curamus

Dear KO63AP,

Very nice information...

Thanks for posting it.

Gaudior, thinking of someone it will interest greatly.

Right you are. No matter the particular church. We all would do well to note that.

I have been exposed to this type of thing several times in 30 years, it has dropped in my lap enough that I had to do a little research at the same time. I wrote a rather long post on this subject but my computer crashed and it was all lost. I took the hint and did not re-write it.

These things are always, always, if genuine, in association with a spiritual person who is in the illuminative stages (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive). It is not always easy to determine who the person is... and you can bet it is usually not the person whom everyone thinks it is. All the public attention goes onto phenomena itself while God wished to hide the real person with whom the event is really associated to. Trust me... while it may seem to be associated with this one priest (and it very well may be) it is more likely that it is really associated with someone that he knows and the Good Lord has the veil over our eyes so that we do not disturb what he is doing with His child. In fact, I can almost guarantee that this event has a direct association with someone that he knows - but he will not violate the situation by making that person public.

Let me be clear - the event does not happen in order that someone might expereince it and be blessed - the event has taken place because someone (we know not who right now) is in the spiritual stages of illumination. There is a bit more to it but that is sufficient to know.

We call them �favors� and they are - to us - but to the spiritual person (whom they are really for) they are a preparation... nourishment... meant to support them to endure trails and further purgation in the near future. As a rule �the brighter the light - the darker the night" (praphrased from St. John of The Cross).

When these events are genuine, we can thank some hidden soul of whom his or her dedication to God has already cost him dearly. It is good that we ask the Lord to have this selected, and hidden soul pray for us. We need not know that persons name or what they look like - all we need know is that they exist. In fact if we encouter something like this (that is genuine) we have now come into a bit of a spiritual communion with that person and what they endure is also for us. Thier prayers for us are as beneficial as Job's were for his three friends. This 'person' may already be praying for you. This is the way that God does it.

-ray

Dear Ray,

What a wonderful post!

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

From today's MSNBC News (4/16/04)...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4750663/?GT1=3256

...not really an "East-N-West" issue, but this seemed to be the appropriate thread to post this in.

You know - a court accepts just one fingerprint as concrte eveidence.

Some people will just refuse to believe - no matter what.

Sad.

-ray

Of course us Eastern Christians know better. The image of the Christus Procrantor is know in our churches since about the 6th cent. There are several parallel references to the Holy Shroud. (ie., the lock of hair over the forehead, the big eyes, the bent cloth over the throat, etc.)

Actually, if any object is burnt it stops the deterioration process. I used to be an archaeologist, and we would try to find pieces of charcoal because they would help date the site.

I saw a blub on CNN that a statue in an Alaskan town is bleeding.