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Dear Myles,

I agree that it is 'cool'!...

(Don't ya know that it was us 'baby boomers' who still think that we are in our twenties, LOL, that coined the term--and sometimes still use it!)

Father Groeschel does alot of his Orthodox research right in my neighborhood, at St. Vladimir's Orthodox seminary!

I like Father Trigilio too, and I think that Father Mitch Pacwa is VERY cool! I love the Holy Land Rosary that he narrates!

In Christ,
Alice

Myles,
You have some intereting items in your post.
But it gets off to an odd start.

Why on earth would you read this into the Deacon's post?

Ditto.

Regarding the word "Liberal" and "Conservative" first the article used those words. It was with the understanding and context in the way they used those words I used them. I thought it was understandable how the meanings of the words should be used (i.e. without politics or social outlook).

Strictly speaking it is well understood that mainstream Protestantism is in decline. At the same time "Conservative" Evangelical Churches are growing. It is my understanding that the number of "unchurched" remain constant. This can only mean that people are leaving mainstream Protestant Churches while joining Evangelical Churches. If this is correct and you can accept that certain mainstream Protestant Churches are "liberal" (see above) then the original article would seem to shed some light for the population changes.

What would be interesting would be a study on the numbers of "liberal" (see above) Catholic Churches verse "conservative" (see above) populations. A good example might be EWTN. There numbers have grown exponential yet similar "liberal" (see above) Catholic stations have remain stagnant. I don't know if a correlation can be made but it would be an interesting study. First one would have to define "liberal" and "conservative".

Professor Michael,

I don't believe I addressed any individual or named any organization in particular. It was not my intention to vilify anyone. It is well known that many radicals following Vatican II have done great harm to the Church. Most of this is behind us but much still lingers on. I don't think it is inappropriate to speak loudly against those who try to destroy within. As we both know the Church has many enemies both outside and inside.

Certainly there were terrible persecutions of theologians in the era of Pius XII. I think of Father Henri de Lubac as an example who are now held in great honor in Rome. It does not justify the persecution by the Curia but then we know of the case of Galileo among many others. The calls to "submit" are not always wise calls.

In my first Political Science class we learned something cool.
It is about the left and right, or in 2004-2005 terms, liberal and conservative.
The story goes when the French Revolution broke out and they stormed the Bastille they were to meet across the street in a tennis court. Something like, those that stood on the left were against the revolution and those that were for the revolution stood on the right (or vice-versa, can't remember exactly, but you see the point).
It is trully funny how in the past couple of years our society has pigeon-holed any view into two seperate camps, "liberal" or "conservative."
My brothers and sisters, four years studying Political Science will quickly tell you it isn't so simple.
In Christ,
Alleghenymountains..
Prince Gallitzan pray for us!

Alex writes: "I am a Donutist - either Krispy Kreme or Dunkin' "

Dear Alex,
I am profoundly shocked! Good home-made doughnuts are delicious, but the mass-produced, machine-made kind are a culinary abomination. In such matters, only the real thing will do.

Incognitus

Alex writes: "I am a Donutist - either Krispy Kreme or Dunkin' "

I'd have to side with Krispy Kreme. Over 40 years ago my high school band in North Carolina sold those wonderful puffs of air every weekend to raise money to buy new band uniforms. We bagged them, then delivered them to people's homes. They were very popular there. Of course, there is no history of homemade ones in those parts.

Brian, the Galileo incident is usually a ruse thrown into an argument to discredit the evil, anti-progressive, dictatorial Church. Galileo got into trouble for denying the truth of the Book of Joshua with his position that the sun could not possibly have stood still, so it didn't happen. He was warned that drawing this conclusion would get him into trouble if he persisted. I understand Galileo was "persecuted" by being held under house arrest in a lavish palace. Church-bashers of the world unite!

Dear Jim and Incognitus,

I do believe it was Charles who made the statement about being a Donutist . . .

As a diabetic, I was being more general, and did not mention Krispy Kreme.

(Although I'm almost convinced that Krispy Kreme doughnuts form part of the beatific experience of heaven . . . justice demands it . . . ).

Alex

AMEN!!

Precisely, ByzanTN. The only reason why the Galileo incident has become an 'incident' is because of Protestant histories of the time. As ByzanTN illustrated the Church condemned him for holding scripture to be errant (not interpretation but the Sacred text itself), and given that he couldnt even offer any proof's for his thesis except by analogy--Issac Newton was the first to correct Copernicus' mistakes and show mathematically how the theory held true if calculated with eliptical orbits--I think the punishment of house arrest was effectively a light tap. Indeed, he's quite lucky the Roman Inquisition and not the Spanish dealt with the case and that their main concern was making Catholics look 'as Biblical' as Protestants. In Spain Galileo really would have 'got it'.

I think Brian you need to take a broader look at ecclesiastical policy before holding up 'examples' of authoratarianism by the Magisterium. As I've just pointed out Church policy is not always strictly based around Theology i.e. Pius XII and De Lubac. Brilliant, brilliant as De Lubac was the very fact is as the post-conciliar crises has shown Pius XII was dealing with more than De Lubac. Modernism was never really defeated it simply went into hiding in the seminaries and waited for a chance to surface. Vatican II tried to address the concerns of those on the edges of orthodox Catholicism to prevent a catastrophe. However, as one could expect. For many 'it didnt go far enough' and they had to continue progress in 'the spirit of Vatican II'.

Getting back to the point. For right or wrong, de Lubac was seen as one of the main focusses of modernism. Pius XII was trying to avoid the breakdown of the neo-Thomist hold on Roman Catholic theology, which had proved to be Leo XIII's weapon against modernism when it first broke out. His actions were not simple acts of oppression directed against anything seen not to square with Roman Orthodoxy but an attempt to hold together a Church that behind the scenes had been creaking at the seams since Pius IX's pontificate.

Maybe he choose the wrong policy? Certainly John XXIII thought so and tried an alterantive approach: supporting De Lubac and the 'new theology and calling a General Council at which De Lubac served as chief theological expert. However, once again the best intentions of the Pope's have been thrwarted by the refusal of the modernists to do what ByzanTN rightly says they should do: Accept the authentic spirit of Vatican II--the compromise of Vatican II--as the Magisterium interprets it and keep their theology within its boundaries.

PS) If I mistook the statements of the deacon I apologise. As I said elsewhere on this site, I often speak out of ignorance and it often gets me into trouble. Please forgive me if I attributed to you good deacon a view that you do not hold. *bows*

I don't know Alex, the experience of Tim Horton's to the pilgrim Donutist- now that something "heavenly"...

I was recently discussing our past trips to Canada with my son, and he immediately reminisced about his first trip to Canada while very young and experiencing Tim Horton's ... O Canada...

The online article about the UK survey can be found at: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/mar/05030704.html

The actual study, in pdf format, can be found at:
http://www.plain-truth.org.uk/churchsurveyreport.pdf


--John

P.S.

The report can also be downloaded from www.churchreport.co.uk [churchreport.co.uk] .

--John

Well, in the spirit of liberalism, we do after all live in a pluralistic society. If Alex and others wish to eat commercial donuts, I suppose I should be tolerant of this aberration. But the Donatist heresy would imply that the validity of the donut depends upon the moral condition of the producer!

Can it really be true that no one makes homemade doughnuts in North Carolina? How sad.

I remember an open letter to Gorbachov from a Greek-Catholic group in Transcarpathia, shortly before the end of the persectuion: В Голандском сыре эети товарищы видят одны только дырки! That's the spirit.

Incognitus