www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Altar Stone for sale

I was very disappointed to see an altar stone listed on Ebay. This is MORE than just a relic, as precious as relics are. It is a consecrated altar on which the Eucharistic Liturgy is celebrated. We should pray that it falls into well-intentioned hands.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3228249211&category=1447
Silouan, foolish old monk

Bless me a sinner, Father Silouan,

Where did you get that beautiful avatar of Our Lady of Loreto?

Is there a site that sells copies of that image?

Alex

Dear Servant of God, Alex:
May the choicest blessings of heaven descend upon you and those you love always+

I really don't remember where I got that avatar image. I found it someplace and asked the Administrator if I might be able to use it and somehow, with the magic of computer wizardry, there it was! I am a member of the Universal Congregation of the Holy House and a fragment of the original walls of the Holy House is enshrined in the chapel.
I am so pleased that you like it.
Silouan, old monk

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I don't mind so much that holy things are being sold as much as they are being sold publically. I don't think there is anything wrong with selling church goods to other churches, but publically.....

Dmitri

Bless me a sinner, Father Silouan,

Yes indeed!

A true Black Madonna and it was visited by His Holiness as well!

Alex

I noticed one of the bidders, "Broken Triangle" from his/her page is an unabashed devotee of the "Craft"...quite disturbing.

Dear Diak,

I see that the priest who sold it to this fellow seems to have been compliant enough.

How could a priest give this up for sale?

And if he didn't, why didn't he do everything in his power to prevent it leaving his church?

Alex

Dear Brothers,

Perhaps as a self-consolation, when hearing of such sacriligious things, I throw up my hands and remind myself that they (we) already crucified the King of Glory. There isn't much more than they (we) can do to Him or His Church.

In Christ,
Andrew

This is nothing new. The church has been bulldozing consecrated churches and turning them into Bingo halls so they can build empty warehouses and place tables in them. They call these warehouses "Churches." So, what to do with the Churches Holy Things? Sell them off. I have even heard of Churches melting golden chalices so they can replace them with glass ones.

I say GREAT sell them off! They are too holy for those responsible of selling them. In other words, they do NOT deserve to have them.

I only pray that some schismatic (i use the term lightly) order buys them and uses them properly.

That is what I love about Mother Angelica. She is a rescuer of these objects. There are many being use at EWTN.

Rose

Dear Friends,

Your thoughts expressed here reminds me of a special icon I have.

It is of the Mother of God of Kazan, from Russia, and it has an indentation in the Face of the Mother of God - but I can't say for sure if this was done malevolently or what.

This neglected and rescued icon fills me with such peace whenever I look at it or even have it in my study.

To remove it from the room makes me feel inside that something important is missing there - even though there are plenty more icons around.

If we ever have the means and come across such neglected Sacred things, let us by all means rescue them and keep them with us.

Perhaps too this was also what Christ meant when He stated the questions that will be put to humanity at the Last Judgement?

Alex

And it sold for a mere $147.00.

Oh my....

I'm not sure, but as an OLD sceptic (Hey, I've been a high school and community college teacher!) something smells funny to me about this e-bay thing.

First, the documentation is missing. Hmmm. Romaniaks losing paperwork? Don't think so.

Two, it is coming from a priest? Don't think that either. Even the dumbest poorly educated RC priest knows that his ass would be on the line for disposing of an altar stone. His bishop would ream his butt and probably laicize him.

Third: the relics implanted are supposed to be from MARTYRS, (reminiscent of the catacombs) not just from ordinary saints. A relic of St. Francis of Assisi in an altar stone? Not even close.

Fourth: all the advertising and "bona fides". Sounds like the seller "doth protest too much".

My suspicion (and hope) is that this is an ordinary piece of marble from Home Depot with a hole drilled in it and some "cement" to seal the hole.

From the 'suspicious Greek merchant in the Casbah'
Blessings!

Some of the ebay stories befind religious antiques are pathetic in the extreme, and at times totally impossible, given the age and provenance of an item.

Some of the worst are Baltic Russians selling icons painted last week, but on old boards. Sometimes the icons come from before the canonisation of the saint portrayed on them. Miraculous!!!

Do sellers really think we are so stupid?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Yes, indeed!

Alex

I'm not so sure. I know one RC priest who rescued 4 or 5 altar stones from his brother clergy who literally threw them away. He later mounted them on the walls of the chapel in his church where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved.

And I have heard numerous horror stories of what priests will dispose of from churches...

Dave

I find that just incredible. I would hope that the bishop(s) would monitor the renovations that are going on and make appropriate inquiries as to the disposal of sacred elements.

And, if the priests are indeed 'disposing' of altar stones, what the he..... are they teaching them in seminary? There are canon laws about this stuff and even the looniest priest should have at least HEARD about sacred objects.

If there are any bishops who get this message, I would hope that they make appropriate inquiries. And I've got two friends in New Jersey, who for $200 bucks, and no questions asked........ will "explain" the matter.

Blessings!!

Dear Dr. John and Dave,

I don't know about altar stones, but I do know that a few years ago a Greek Orthodox priest that I know told my husband that he had recieved calls from some surrounding RC clergy asking him if they would like their church's holy relics which they no longer wanted.
Modernism?

Alice

I've heard similar stories Alice.

Spasi Khristos -
Fr Mark.

I can testify firsthand that this type of thing has been common in the Latin Church as part of what many thought was mandated by the Second Vatican Council. Unfortunately, many of us learned the truth many years later that this type of thing was not, indeed, mandated.

I personally rescued three altar stones with the relics intact as part of a parish renovation. I was told that I could have them as paving stones for my patio. They rest in the altar tables of three small Orthodox parishes near me that did not have relics enshrined beneath their altar tables.

I witnessed similar altar stones being sent to the dump when I was in high school. No one told the bishop and no one seemed to ask. The latest liturgical directives do not require relics to be part of the altar table, so it seems that no one has given a thought to how we moved from old to new and had such an important part of the parish church become lost in the process.

In the parish in which I was baptized and raised, our baptismal font (marble) was given to someone who took it for a "birdbath" (I feel your pain, but this is the truth) during the renovations following Vatican II in the late 1960s. I thought at the time that the whole world had gone mad because it was happening in all the parishes around us, too.

That's why I have drawn strength from my Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox brethren. You still understand that reverence for God and the things that represent or remind us of God, and that are blessed, is part and parcel of what it means to be part of the Communion of Saints--part of who we ourselves are.

BOB

Dear Bob,

What sad, sad decades for the Roman Catholic Church these have been. The convert Roman Catholic historian Warren Caroll, who has written two or three great volumes on the history of Christendom, refers to these times as the 'Modernist Heresy'.

If only my RC brethren knew how much in awe the rest of the Christian world looked at their beautiful traditions, pageantry, and objects, which fortunately still exist in the most part in European churches and the great Cathedrals of the U.S., perhaps they wouldn't have been so quick to become like their Protestant brethren. The reverence I feel when I enter St. Patrick's Cathedral here in NYC is almost next to none. There is still a font for Holy Water, and shrines, and mahogany confessionals, and votive (real, not electrified! ) candles, and chapels, and everything which is quintessentially Latin, and it is BEAUTIFUL. I can only hope that sanity is now being restored, and that there is or will be a return to the traditional glory and beauty that the whole world has come to associate with the Roman Catholic Church.

We lost inumerable treasures of the time in the East during the iconoclast period, I hope that this will not be the equivalent for the Roman Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,
One of my fondest memories is of St Patrick's cathedral which we visited on a trip to NYC. We dropped in on a Thursday afternoon, no Mass being served, BUT there were hundreds and hundred of people there. I think every, every votive candle was lit. It was very moving, I couldn't speak for trying to hold back the tears. It was so unexpected, my reaction to seeing all those people and candles. I still get choked up thinking about it. And one of the most beautiful things were the old, beat up kneelers. I could only imagine the thousands and thousands of pairs of knees that had knelt over many years in that awesome church. We knelt ourselves at Sunday Mass 8 a.m. I didn't think any Catholic church could affect me the way St Patrick's did, I am so used to modern creations down here in the south.
denise

Dear Denise,

Yes, I know what you mean. I cannot tell you what dimension that church adds to the fast paced, and often secular and cold world that NYC can be. I have been to masses there, (and I am Orthodox) in the middle of a chaotic day, and I especially love the chapel dedicated to our Lady in the very front of the church behind the altars.

What is MOST moving, is to see New Yorkers, from ALL walks of life, the poor and the rich, men and women, black, white and brown, business suits and jeans, come and kneel and pray at all hours of the day. I never cease to leave having felt tears in my eyes. Prayer is ALWAYS going on in those pews, despite the tourists and the lookers.

Sadly, recently when I visited some beautiful Cathedrals in Montreal, I may have been the ONLY person who took the time to stop and pray in Church. I also felt the same sadness in Rome and Venice in the beautiful churches...I stopped, made the sign of the cross, and actually prayed. I don't think that I saw anyone else do that. People tend to forget that these are consecrated CHURCHES, or people just don't care to spend any time with God today...so uncool and politically incorrect, who knows.

Anyway, as a born and raised girl of the city of New York, the Holy Spirit filled atmosphere of St. Patrick's makes me VERY, VERY proud.

God bless!
Alice

The destruction still goes on: http://www.wokr13.tv/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=7647A3F3-867B-49DF-85FF-2AD4BDA3875F