www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Fed Up

Well, I just got out of the Ash Wednesday Mass at the University Catholic Center.

It was, for me, a truly awful way to begin Lent.

I have decided to respectfully write the priest an e-mail expressing my grievances, but want to do so in a charitable way since he is a priest.

First, besides the campy guitar-hymns, there were some serious problems I had. I'm not even going to bring up the guitars to him since that is, strictly speaking, not a liturgical abuse (to my knowledge anyway). I suppose I could point out how Vatican II states the the organ should have pride of place, etc. but I figure that's a lost cause.

First, the Creed was not recited. I don't know if this is an abuse or not in a regular weekday Mass. I have a feeling it isn't. If not, I won't mention it.

Secondly, during the Canon, the priest completely left out the phrase, "All life, all holiness comes from You."

Thirdly, he left out "martyrs" in the phrase "With the Apostles, martyrs, and all Your Saints..."

Fourthly, no one kneeled for the Consecration but me. I'm pinning this on the priest because for the other parts in the Mass he clearly indicated when people should sit, stand, etc. This is the biggest problem for me. Not kneeling for the Consecration is like spitting in Our Lord's face ISTM.

Fifthly, during the imposition of ashes, the impositors said something like "Repent and you shall be forgiven" or something of the like. Now, I've only ever heard "Remember, Man, that you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Is this another legitimate option?

I'm sorry, but all this is not conducive to a spiritually-fulfilling Mass. My only recourse to any kind of comfort is that Our Lord is truly present there in the Sacred Species. It was an occasion of sin for me (negative thoughts about the priest and others during the Mass), and therefore I believe I, in my own poor judgment, received the Eucharist while in a state of sin, thanks to these shenanigans.

My question is, how should I approach the priest in this forthcoming e-mail? I don't want to sound reactionary or accusatory, but I want these things to be explained. I'm really sick of it all, and if continues I'll just make my way every Sunday and holy day down to the SSPX church. However, I want to give this Catholic Center a chance, and a chance to actually do what our Church asks of it.

So, any advice? And don't try telling me not to write him 'cause it's happening for sure!

Logos Teen

Bad liturgy like bad taste in general is not nice and neither is 'privatised' liturgy. I would consult a freindly priest who you know who usually does things well and is someone you can talk to. Have you consulted the Ordo? I have looked at my copy and all it said was Intro: Greeting; Opening Prayer only. Homily, Blessing and giving of ashes. Preface of Lent IV. Ritual Masses are prohibited. The phrase in the Ordo I have for 'Down Under' is "Turn away from sin and believe the good news."

Get yourself informed about what should have been before you approach the priest to complain, you will have more cred if you sound like you do know what you are talking about. Reflect the language he is using as well, as means of getting through to him.

Good luck!

ICXC
NIKA

Teen,

It's good you're checking for what is allowed before you write. Much of what you report is allowed. The Creed is not said at weekday masses. There is more than one formula to use for the imposition of ashes. Could it be the priest left out those phrases by mistake? They don't seem to fit any agenda I can think of. Kneeling is another matter...some parishes do not do that for various reasons. To be honest, I think some of the time that is not really because of the reason often given, such as "there's not enough room to kneel," etc. You might question him about why the parish does not kneel. It would be interesting to see what his response is.

From a Byzantine lurker in Latin parishes...

Yes, I figured that about the weekday Masses and the Creed. As you can see, I don't regularly attend weekday Masses.

And no, what he omitted fits no agenda I can think of. All the more reason he should leave it in. Maybe he was trying to make the Mass "speedy." But those words are there for a reason.

Also, one of the EM's blessed a small child the exact same way a priest does in the Communion line before me.

Logos Teen

Teen:

The formula that we used this evening was "turn from sin and believe in the Gospel." There are several approved formulae in the revised Roman Liturgy so don't throw that one up. I've also been instructed to use "repent and believe in the Gospel" other years and the more traditional one you mention. At one point in my life the priests were required to recite it in Latin and that did nothing for anyone.

Sometimes people don't kneel during liturgies in non-church settings because of the lack of kneelers. On the other hand, if you've ever been to an Orthodox liturgy no one kneels on a Sunday, even in Lent. And I've been to Presanctified Liturgy where no one does anything but stand throughout.

Give the man the benefit of the doubt in omitted phrases. Sometimes it's easy to miss words when one looks up from one's missal unless one pays close attention. I know a priest who always stumbles over the words of the prayers, even when he is staring at the missal.

The liturgy is a door to our participation in the Lord's Saving, Once-for-all, Sacrifice. Liturgically we go back in time to be at the Last Supper, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and we participate by anticipation in His Glorious Second Coming. The liturgy is the door through which we go. It may be sloppy; it may be poorly served. But we meet Christ Who wants desparately to touch us. In the Liturgy, we are supposed to put aside ourselves and become like Him--other directed. Like the Cherubic Hymn that our brethren here sing--"let us lay aside all earthly cares."

Getting caught up on the externals is a spiritual danger--but it is of our own making. Focus on Christ; focus on what He is doing.

Send me a pm with your email address and I'll send you the instruction I've written for training lay ministers in my parish. All of my brethren who have heard it tell me it has changed the way they attend the liturgy and what they see when they are participating.

Your brother in Christ,

BOB

Dear Theophan,

Thank you. I will PM you. But first allow me to reply.

First, these are not trivial matters. Far from it. Lex orandi, lex credendi. The Mass is the most important thing we do as Christians. This is incredibly important. Every word, phrase, and gesture in the Mass has irreplaceable value.

Anyway, for my part, saying the prayer in Latin would do something for me, as I'm sure it would for others. But I won't argue about that.

As far as the kneeling goes, this was a Catholic church, replete with plenty of kneelers. We are not Orthodox, either, and it is certainly not Sunday, so the fact that kneeling was not commanded/recommended/mentioned/encouraged sits very ill will me. As I said before, I think it's disrespectful to our Lord. Anyway, I knelt because it felt very wrong to stand.

I could maybe buy that he simply forgot the words, but why would I, a run-of-the-mill Mass-goer, know every word to the Canon and the rest of the Mass, and yet this priest who celebrates daily Masses, sometimes more than one, cannot get words right? That is simply baffling to me! The only thing I can think of is maybe he learned it wrong in the beginning and has been missing it the whole time!

But in all seriousness, the Liturgy is that door of which you speak, but when a door is covered in mud and manure, it's not that inviting!!!

Logos Teen

Well since its a BYZANTINE FORUM I deleted my response... I can make better use of my time then argue during Lent...

james

I forgot that this is a Roman Catholic forum. :rolleyes:

I am a born and raised Irish Republican who has forgotten more about the Roman Catholic Church than the Jesuits ever taught me. I have just fallen in love with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

I go to Divine Liturgy on weekends and try to go to Mass on weekdays. I miss more Masses than I attend because I am a lazy head who can't get out of bed.

My suggestion is to not worry about kneeling v. standing, organs v. guitars, etc. The important thing is that you love Jesus and realize the reason you go to Church is to worship, not to have a celebration or a party. People respect me at Mass when I don't hold hands during the Our Father, but bow my head and fold my hands. Remember, nothing stops you from kneeling at anytime when you want to.

Do you really care about what everybody else at Church thinks about you, or what Jesus thinks about you?

My other suggestion is to read Story of a Soul, the Autobiography of St. Therese of Lisieux, the Little Flower. She is the youngest Doctor of the Church - only 24 years old when she died - and has been declared as "the Greatest Saint of Modern Times."

One of the things I love about the Little Flower is her discussion about all of the prayer books she was given to read. She says that each one was better than the one before, but they just gave her a headache. She would simply lay in bed and say "Jesus, I love you" before falling asleep.

She also has a hilarious story about the evening recitation of the Rosary at her convent. Apparently, she became annoyed or fell asleep during the Rosary, and started playing a mental game listening to another nun pray. And this is a Doctor of the Church? She is a Doctor for you and me!

Finally, the Little Flower is the patron Saint of missionaries, which seems especially appropriate for Western Christians looking towards the East. She also is the Patron Saint of St. Therese of Lisieux Byzantine Catholic Church in St. Petersburg, FL.

Don't be Fed Up. Be Filled Up, with the Holy Spirit.

JP

Teen:

Pick your battles. If, as a Roman Catholic, you search and search, you will *NEVER* find the "perfect liturgy." Every church has something in it that will "irk" you. Trust me - I've been there.

As far as what you're pointing out, the only *real* issue I see if the lack of proper posture during the Eucharistic Prayers. But, unless he specifically told everyone to stand up and totally defied the rubric for kneeling....

Save your energy for when they start making up their own eucharistic prayers, changing the words of institution, letting deacons say the words specifically assigned to the priest, etc.

More over, you shoulda came over to Roswell and hung out with us at a Byzantine LPSG.

To those of you who remind us that this is not a RC Forum, but rather an Eastern Christian one:

That's the entire reason I posted this is Town Hall, where all non-Byzantine/non-ecclesial topics go. Did it not occur to you that this would, if I thought it were RC Forum, be better placed in Faith & Worship. But since I know better, I posted it here.

If you have problems with that, move to change the stated contents of Town Hall.

Logos Teen

Hence my disdain for guitars.

Crule,

I understand what you're saying, but I don't ask for a "perfect" liturgy, only one by the rubrics. If this Mass fit that bill, then I'll accept that and say that I just don't find it pleasing. But if it didn't, that's another thing.

And the High Masses offered at the FSSP in Mableton and the SSPX in Roswell leave nothing to be desired on my end. Like I said, I don't demand perfection in every aspect; of course that can never be. I only ask that, at the very least, the Mass is followed as Holy Mother Church allows.

By the way, I'd love to get over to Epiphany some time! Epiphany and the SSPX church are quite close. Perhaps this Sunday I'll make the trip to Epiphany! I've only heard good things. I really do put too many miles on my car, but with a German SUV I think that's what I'm supposed to do!

Logos Teen

No need to post this on a different Forum - Town Hall is certainly appropriate.

Listen to Crule and don't worry about the perfect Liturgy. If the Apostles were waiting for the perfect Liturgy, none of us would be Christians today.

Look West, look East. Look North, look South. If you ever get the chance, go to an African-American Roman Catholic Mass. It will blow you away. During the sermon, one side of the congregation yelled "Amen, Brother", and the other side later yelled "You preach it, Brother."

Its very clear that the Holy Spirit was at that Service!

Teen:

If you're looking for a liturgy done strictly by the rubrics, you'd better save your money for a ticket to Rome. Where I live even the bishop encourages standing during the anaphora. In fact, there is one church that was built some years ago in this diocese where there are no kneelers and they stand during the anaphora as a matter of their own practice. The bishop wanted this place to be a model for how he sees liturgy celebrated in the future.

I had a priest tell me that what you describe is what has passed for "formation" in the seminaries for the last 40 years so don't get upset over the product and don't let it get you off track. It's no secret that many seminary programs encourage men to improvise as they go along and what you describe is mild compared to some of the things that I've heard of in the years since the revised liturgy has become the norm. In some circles it's seen as a proof that a man is truly "in the Spirit of Vatican II" when he flouts the rubrics. And as long as it doesn't get too outrageous, most bishops won't bother a priest.

As I have encouraged you above, look past the externals to Christ. And be careful that you don't incur His Wrath later by describing the liturgy as coverd in "mud and manure." You don't mean that, I hope.

As far as Latin goes, it's a non-starter. Most seminary programs haven't taught it for many years and there are lots of priests in their 30s, 40s, and 50s--even 60s--who have had no training in the language at all. If you really want to make things a mess, just push that issue. The reality is that there are very few who can navigate in that language these days. Certainly no one wants to have someone try to stumble through the liturgy in a language that he has no knowledge of. In such a scenario, why pick Latin? Why not Swahili or Hindi or Mandarin?

Beyond all this, there are many places in the world where people have no access to the Liturgy AT ALL. Either they are under persecution, have had their churches destroyed, had their priests killed, or have no vocations to supply ordainted leadership.

Man, I've been where you're at and I've lived through some nasty stuff. But when years and experience have brought me to where I am, I've come to understand that I've been selfish and self-centered by complaining. Better to give others an example of how people ought to approach the Mysteries and live it truly from the inside out than to be a bitter complainer. Where I am now--and I don't want you to think I'm boasting because that's not my intent--is a place where my fellow parishioners ask me what ought to be done in liturgical situations and not our pastor. And even when he tells people something is "no big deal," they come and ask me if it is or not. That, too, is a dangerous place to be. We owe our priests holy obedience because of Baptism and deliberately crossing one will draw the Lord's ire at the Judgment. So I want to counsel you to be very careful here. Find a priest who will serve as your spiritual father and listen to him. For awhile it might even profit you to submit to someone who is a bit more "liberal" than you seem to be. Such a man might have the patience to explain to you the whats and the whys and the wherefores of what is going on and try to help you understand what it is that is upsetting you so much.

If you have been seduced by some of those who think that the glory days were before Vatican II, you should certainly take this last step. There were plenty of terrible liturgies done in those days, too.

Beyond all this, why don't you commit to going to the seminary and being one who serves the Liturgy with such reverence and devotion that people are drawn to where you are and have their faith built up by you?

Try for Lent to overlook the things that bother you. Offer this as an obedience to Christ for just these 40 Days. Then at Holy Pascha offer it to Him as a way of life.

BOB

Dear LT,

I understand your concerns and have followed the thread, but feel that I am not in the position to make any specific comments towards your plight. Though, after reading Bob's last post, I think it is something that you should read and then reread and possibly follow up on. He makes extremely good sense.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+