www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall On Seminary Graduation as a Pre-requisite for Ordination

Well, judging from yesterday's (Phoenix) Arizona Republic articles on the local RC diocese' shortages of clergy and numerous scandals, I'd say that relying on the bishop is not necessarily the way to go. Even when there were warnings in personnel files, priests continued to be placed in unsuitable ministries. I doubt seriously that one person decided each case. Many of these cases stem from transfers from other dioceses, so the initial selection process didn't involve their local bishop.

Hopefully, our eparchies will not feel any pain from such stuff. The selection process should not be left up to one person, in any case, even if he is a bishop. All human beings have limits on their understanding that need help from others in order to be clearer or more accurate. After all, the Holy Spirit is not necessarily behind every decision a bishop makes. I'd hope so, but the bishop should do his homework rather than taking God's Will for granted. Somehow I think any bishop worth his salt would say the same.

Jim, most eparchies in the homelands and in the diaspora use a committee system to screen or make recommendations about the candidates for the Bishop to decide. And things are changing because of the fallout from all these scandals, even for Greek Catholics. For my own diaconal preparation, it was required to undergo a rigorous set of psychological evaluations which had to be completed with favorable recommendations before I could be ordained to the subdiaconate.

But Alex makes a very good and relevant point. If we are to be the living examples of synodal governance in the Church the eparchial bishop has to have some authority to chose his men and decide ultimately who is fit or not fit for ordination, regardless of their academic background.

Jim,

Christ is Risen!

FYI, men have been ordained in the USA for the Ruthenians that did not complete the seminary program before or after ordination. There are others with varying levels of education, Roman, Byzantine or other. Perhaps on paper what you say is correct but it is not so in practice.

Tony

What is truly needed is not claims one way or the other about which jurisdiction has the least formally educated clergy (though I am unaware of such priests today within the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia; I AM aware of many within the OCA. No disinformation will change that). What is needed is educated clergy who can be effective in their roles in the parishes. Uneducated or undereducated ones are less apt to be reliable counselors. I speak from the experiences of many OCA parishioners, not just myself.

There are interim measures that might help to work around their shortcomings, such as the withholding of the authority to hear confessions, etc. as already mentioned.

Dear Jim,

Please tell me more about the situation in the OCA. I am very surprised to hear (I hope I am reading your post correctly) about the lack of theological education. Doesn't every priest have to graduate from a seminary? If not, why do you think this is? Some people I met from the OCA once told me that you have a shortage of priests. Could this be a 'desperate', if you will, determining factor. (For the record, we also have a shortage of priests).

As far as confession, I do know that one is not automatically given the right to be a confessor in the GOA. It took our young (28 years old and in his first year of the priesthood), about one and a half years before he was allowed to be a confessor.

Many GO admire the OCA greatly for what seems to be, more of an emphasis (on the part of the laity) on true Christian and Orthodox spirituality and religiousity (rather than a venue to retain one's ethnic heritage ) than what we see in many of our churches...

I am looking forward to your comments.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

There ARE 3 seminaries for the OCA with excellent programs- of course, St Vladimir's in Crestwood, NY (where one of our posters, Anastasios is residing), St Tikhon's in South Canaan, PA (a monastery as well) and St Herman's in Alaska. There is NO reason why there should be uneducated clergy in the OCA!

So now, a priest that does not attend seminary is uneducated?

I am not against seminary education, but to say that this is the only way is wrong and ignores the fact that one can become educated in many different ways.

David

ps theres that pesky thumbs down again! :p

Dear Jim,

By "bishop" I meant "Orthodox bishop" - an RC bishop won't allow for the ordination of a priest without seminary training.

And I know priests with doctorates in theology, philosophy, canon law, etc. who are, how shall I say . . . ignoramuses when it comes to dealing with parishioners.

As for being narrow - there are lots of limited and bigoted priestly scholars around in all the Churches!

I have no seminary training, but I think I would make for a great priest.

I'd be entertaining, at least, don't you think?

Alex

I noticed your continued use of that "thumbs down" :p I pray eventualy for a "thumbs up"

David,
I completely agree with you that education takes many forms and the best is practical experience among the people of God in a parish. I think Archbishop +Joseph (Raya) had much the same view of seminaries. I don't think we should be too hard on such great institutions as St Vladimir's or Holy Trinity in JOrdanville. That's all I'm saying

Theology is about knowing God, not knowing about God. Education... what is education, in spiritual terms? The best priests I've ever know are the simple 'uneducated' ones. Britain is full of bookish, clever priests. May the Lord preserve us from them.

And "amen" to your post, Father Mark.

Christ is Risen!
Andrew

Well, Alice, I'm about to go out on a limb again.

My stats are not current, but there was a time a few years ago when the GOA was short some 50+ priests in the U.S. That's probably changed by now. At the same time the OCA said it was only short 4 or 5. Even so, GOA has established many missions and churches where the OCA has not, and seems to continue to grow faster. GOA is number one within the orthodox churches outside Rome in the U.S. in headcount, despite OCA efforts at unification.

What the OCA didn't say was that it has a long-standing Late Vocation Program which is sometimes used in lieu of residency at a seminary. It's intended for the diaconate, but in more than 1 case it has resulted in the priesthood once the diaconate was achieved. Bishops can and do make decisions without synodal agreements on some things. This phenomenon may be limited to the Diocese of the West and that of the South, as far as I know. The West also took in a series of non-canonical mission groups whose clergy were mostly ordained in place, even though they also hadn't been to an orthodox seminary. Not unlike taking an Lutheran-Missouri Synod type and just re-ordaining him, I suppose.

Because Orthodoxy enjoys a certain internal fluidity, it's also not unusual for a seminary candidate to go to St. Vlad's, then go to an Antiochean or Greek church. It happens there is a GOA mission in Flagstaff whose priest came from an OCA seminary. Locally, clergy also bounce from one jurisdiction to another without much concern, though most Antiocheans are not permitted to jump. As a lay person it concerns me, however. I found it to be too casual an approach to the Faith, this leapfrogging of clergy when they know little about the new place.

As to the 3 OCA seminaries, St. Vlads is sometimes characterized as generally making scholars and theologians, and St. Tikhon's is supposed to make great parish priests. That probably could spark debate from Tony and others at St. Vlads. My personal experience with St. Vlads priests has been some of both, but more scholarly than community-oriented. St. Herman's in Alaska is for educating Native Americans to serve the Alaska diocese, mainly.

GOA, on the other hand, has a much admired seminary of its own in Massachusettes. The Antiocheans have no seminary in the U.S., but have many vocations, and are regarded as rather progressive compared to the other two. They send their candidates to all of the above except St. Herman's. Sort of makes you wonder why there are any jurisdictions, doesn't it?

Dear Jim,

Thankyou for the response. Yes, I agree that it would be nice if the OCA and the GOA were united.

As for that mission church in Flagstaff, my husband and I got to know the priest Father Nicholas Andruchow quite well. He served as a deacon at my parish in Westchester County, N.Y., while he was still studying at St. Vladimirs.
He and his presvytera Marilyn are exceptional Christians. I guess he is the GOA's gain, but OCA's loss!

In Christ,
Alice

It's not all or nothing>

Many men are pulled early from a three year program because of urgent needs in their diocese coupled with readiness and willingness on their own part. Sometimes these are the best clergy, since they really do understand the urgency of their work.

Also, there is a seminary exchange program where a seminarian at SVS or Holy Cross may take a semester or two at the other seminary. I like to think of it as cross-polination in the garden of the Lord. I can't remember if this relationship exists with Sts. Tikhon's, Herman's, Sophia's (Ukrainian), or Libertyville, IL (Serbian's) Seminaries.

There is no perfect model of a clergyman except Christ. And all of the candidates fall short there.

Indeed He is Risen!
Andrew

Trouble is, once ordained and assigned to a parish, priests are pretty much at liberty to do and say whatever they want if there is little episcopal or other oversight in their diocese. Where is the assurance that Orthodoxy is true to the Faith when there is little supervision or no one supervising the front line?