www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall On Seminary Graduation as a Pre-requisite for Ordination

As far as I know, all churches with Rome require seminary completion prior to ordination to the priesthood.

This is not always true in orthodox churches outside Rome, however. Within the OCA Diocese of the West there are several priests and a bishop who did NOT graduate from an orthodox (and/or any other kind of) seminary.

I have greater confidence in seeking spiritual counsel from priests who have graduated from seminary, than I do from those who haven't. It's sort of like not going to a doctor who hasn't been to medical school.

Does anyone else have information on this phenomenon? Is it limited to the OCA in the U.S., or are we witnessing something of a new trend that could expand elsewhere?

Seminaries as such are a totally unknown phenomenon in the early Church. There are other ways of educating priestly candidates, i.e., within monasteries. However, my own preference, now that we have "seminaries," would be that theological seminaries be attached to and be under the supervision of monasteries.

OrthodoxEast

In theory, that would be a good idea. But there is no guarantee that apart from the liturgical life of the monastery that the candidate would gain all the knowledge and skills necessary to serve the people in the parish.

I think that the current system, despite its flaws, is a good one. A person goes to the seminary as the 'academy' to gain the foundational elements of priesthood: history, canon law, moral theology, systematic theology (my personal favorite), liturgics, preaching, etc. (also to include things like managing a parish facility, balancing books, managing a schedule, and pastoral counseling). But the time spent assigned to a priest in a parish is a most excellent condition for ordination. Monks don't have to provide guidance to a men's guild or a ladies sisterhood, or to CCD teachers, or deal with building inspectors and fire marshals. This is best learned under the guidance of a respectable and effective pastor.

Just a few thoughts......

Christ is Risen!

But monks can provide the necessary atmosphere of prayer and reverence that is difficult to find anywhere else. The seminary may still provide all the subject matter you enumerate, Dr. John, but if it is not grounded in prayer, if we do not have praying priests, well....what's the point?

OrthodoxEast

The implication is that there is no prayer in seminary.

Let me assure you, there is. Time in chapel (whether for liturgical prayer or personal prayer) is built into the schedule.

Monasteries are there for those men and women who have a vocation from God to serve through intense prayer and meditation. They are not there to be training institutions. There are those who come for a few days to close themselves off from the cares of the world, but that time is prayerful, not scholastic. If the monastics were asked, my suspicion would be that they very much cherish their solitude and their silence and so would prefer not to be actively involved in the total training of the diocesan clergy.

Christ is Risen!!

Dear Jim,

As far as I know, in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, all priests must have graduated with seminary training.

I don't know about the present, but I do know that in Greece of older days, there were, infact, priests who were not trained in the seminary. Priests were therefore not often as respected as were their counterparts in the West who, I believe, were alway well educated.

That is not to say that Greece did not have some extremely intellectual and educated bishops, such as St. Nektarios of Aegina, who lived in the beginning of the 20th century. Besides the theological schools in Greece, Halki in Turkey, was probably the most revered theological school of Orthodox theology, and some of our present day hierarchs were educated there. Unfortunately, despite much controversy and continuing diplomatic and grass root efforts for the Turkish government to allow it to reopen, it remains presently closed.

In Christ,
Alice

Thanks, Alice, for your post. It reminded me of a couple of things.

The Halki dilemma is supposed to be part of a greater Turkish problem. The government there sees a need to restrict theological study of all kinds, not just Orthodox, to prevent sedition. It is the Islamic majority that is most limited by this measure, since the Orthodox make up about 2000 people in Istanbul nowadays. It's just that Halki held a uniquely invaluable library for study which is also closed to the world as a result. Does that sound about right?

The other thing that came to mind was the matter of priests who are authorized to hear confessions versus those less educated who are not. I am not sure whether this was a Greek custom, or used more by Antioch. I do know that because of priestly indiscretions relating to talk outside the confessional many Arab Christians don't go to confession at all. Once that trust is broken, it is next to impossible to recover.

The idea of clergy having additional levels of sacramental authorization may be something Eastern Churches should consider, however, given the scarcity of vocations. That way, a priest could perform liturgical functions that don't necessarily require wise counsel. A better educated priest could also hear confessions. After all, our priests can chrismate because they are authorized to do so by their bishop, while RC priests still can't. It would be an episcopal decision, I suppose?

Dear Jim, I know of several Ukrainian Catholic and Melkite priests who did not finish a "traditional" seminary program but were ordained to the priesthood. I know of one Ukrainian Catholic priest who went through a diaconate program and was later ordained a priest without any extra academic work.

Greetings all,

Speaking as one who is in the seminary, It is my belief that a seminary education is important. Now, I know several priests, bishops, and even one cardinal, who do not have seminary degrees. In the days of old, that some of my seminarian brothers pine for, a man went to seminary, took classes, had the practical stuff, but did not get a degree. After ordination men were sent on for more schooling after spending atleast one assignment in a parish.
The seminary program that we have now, although not perfect, is a great begining to ones education for ministry. There is a blend between the academic, the pastoral, the spiritual, and the human in the program. The seminary does not train one to be a theologian, but a parish priest.
Some of my classmates think that after they graduate, they will know it all. As one priest told us recently, after ordination, you find out how much you don't know.

Just some thoughts
Peter

Some men I have known who have had professional careers and have dealt with diverse interpersonal family and business situations and later approach ordination make much better and practical priests and deacons. Seminary formation is no panacea for making a good priest.

The priestly studies are often the easy part. Dealing with the people and the parish dynamics are the bigger challenge and no amount of book learning can prepare anyone adequately until they "get their hands dirty". And the previous post underlies the air of presumption I have also observed from some (usually younger) seminarians that simply being in the seminary will teach them everything. Sometime the water is deeper than it looks.

My priest was a surgon. He was selected to become a priest, sent to Egypt, ordained, spent 40 days in a monastary learning to pray the Liturgy, and then came back and served. This is normal for us. We have semenaries, but they're not really part of the ordination process. That doesn't mean that our priests are uneducated. It's just that only worthy candidates are chosen for the priesthood, people who already know the cannons and everything and meet all the requirements. My priest for example learned a lot studying in preparation for the sermons he gave as a Reader when he had no intention ever of becoming a priest. This system tends to shock people who are used to the whole semanary system, but it works great for us. Of course not all our preists are perfect, they're human, and some have weaknesses in their knowledge. But in general our preists are very will informed, knowledgable, and effective pastorially, without a formal seminary education. It's worked fine for almost 2000 years, and there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to switch over to requiring semenary. Rather than a person chosing to be a priest and persuing it from a young age as one would any profession, our preists first labour successfully in the world, so that they have something to give up when the are selected for the preisthood. The traditional age for ordination is 30, since Christ worked until He was 30 before starting His public ministry, although older ages are also common. The person does not express a desire for the priesthood, rather when a congregation needs a priest they select a worthy member of the congregation, and if he is found suitable to the congregation, the preist, the bishop, and the Pope, he is ordained and begins serving 40 days later.

Dear CO, that is a wonderful and practical tradition. Economia in action. I think with a little more of that kind of flexibility we would not find ourselves in such a dire clergy shortage.

The Ethiopians follow a very similar practice to yours in the diaspora.

Diak,

Please do not think I am one of those seminarians who think we can learn it all in Seminary, far from it. This is a second career, if I can use that term, for me. I for one, know I will not know anything when I get out. Okay, that may not be true I will know somethings, but dealing with people is something that you learn by doing, not by reading about it. Or, you can just smack them around a little.

Peter

Go to the scriptures and canons. There you will find the requirements and impediments to ordination. No mention of seminary at all.

Most importantly, the discernment of the bishop still should take precedence over the credentialism of the modern age.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Friends,

Seminaries can often be places that fail to deliver on a number of fronts.

The Eastern traditions really do place the priest front and centre in the worshipping community.

The Eastern priest will spend hours in worship, rites, sacraments etc. and he must know how to perform all these correctly and with edification.

Most of what we learn about theology, faith and praxis, is to be learned from the liturgical tradition - and that is where the priest must be "expert."

The western-style seminaries do indeed have time for prayer, but in some I've been in there seems to be a practical "divorce" from prayer and the rationalistic theological tradition that is taught.

It doesn't have to be that way, but I think seminaries emphasize academic subjects and priests who go for doctorates in various theological disciplines come out ready for a professorship rather than for pastoral work - and there's nothing wrong with that.

And when seminaries try to teach practical, pastoral counselling, they often fall short of the real-life experience that a priest would need - later on-the-job training may or may not help him out.

I think a priest is ready for work in a parish when his bishop SAYS he is, irrespective of the nature of his preparation and background.

I trust the bishop to judge a person's readiness and worthiness for the priesthood.

Alex