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Henry, I'm happy I'm not the only one that noticed. It is very true, all fundamentalists are same, whether Moslem or Christian, Democrat or Republican, they all want to take power by any means possible and each ones KNOWS what is best for everyone else. They all frighten me and the fundamentalist "Christians" frighten me the most, even more the Moslem fundamentalists...here in the US they have more power and are working very hard to take over this country and make it a "Christian" nation, but only if it takes on their form of Christianity. If and when that were to happen, we'd have a fascist state worse than Hitler ever dreamed of making.

As someone used to say on here. "Conspiracy theories, get them while they're hot".

Let's not kill anyone unless we have to do it in self defense. At the same time, let's keep our eyes open and watch what is happening around us so we can better protect ourselves. Yes, the political situation in the Middle East is frighteningly complicated. I once heard someone say in jest that the only way there will be peace in the Middle East is to lock up half the people and kill the rest. He wasn't serious, but he noted that the hatreds and divisions there are so deep they almost defy solution. I am not for fundamentalism of any stripe. At the same time, I don't support those pseudo-flower children who think all are people of good will who will be our friends if we just love them. It's a mean, nasty and vicious world that is largely without Christ, which may account for much of the evil. As I said before, we need to keep our eyes open. If our difficulties are coming from people of one religion in one part of the world, then that is where our enemies are, and we need to be realistic about them.

Dan and Lawrence,

I don't often find myself in agreement with moe, let alone find myself in the role of defending him - but, besides the fact that I agree, at least in principle, with what he said, I think both of you have taken the liberty to read a lot into his words and used your posts to essentially attack him, as an individual, for his beliefs/opinions. It seems to me that isn't why this forum exists, nor why we engage one another here. You both owe him an apology in my opinion.

Many years,

Neil

Unless one knows of first hand suffering under Islam, simply because of one's religion, one cannot talk. I have seen enough and heard enough from my relatives (my grandmother's island was the last to gain freedom from the Ottoman Turks in 1921) to be very wary of Islam and their attitude and intentions towards Christianity.

I respect and honor their devotion to their religion, and I respect the beauty of the souls of the many Middle Eastern people I have met who are Muslim, however, I will NEVER let my guard down and think that we can all coexist in this world harmoniously.

As my husband says when people say that all is fine between Islam and Christianity, 'a quick trip to the island of our ancestors, Chios, Greece, (Delacroix memorialized the famously horrific massacre of 2/3 of the island's inhabitants in a painting hanging in the Louvre--and that is just ONE little example) will quickly dispel that notion.' The rest of the examples are memorialized by the blood shed in churches, monasteries, and hangings in the town square.

Sorry guys.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Neil,

I know what Moe wrote. I know what he means. I find his approach insulting. I didn't need to follow suit. I apologize to the forum for my open reproach of Moe's scatter gun attack upon anyone who disagrees with his position. Pray for him that he stops calling every position he doesn't agree with "fundamentalist". I certainly have no clear idea what that word means. I suspect he doesn't either. It seems only to be a label foisted upon others to inflame passion. If you note I did not label Moe in any way that he did not label others. I simply very strongly disagree with both his position and the way he consistently presents it. Nevertheless, I will do my best to find a way to disagree with his position without being disagreeable. Pray for me as I do enjoy it.

Alice is quite correct. There are millions of examples of Muslim/Arabist/Islamicist behaviors against Christians and Jews. There are so many, in fact, that we would be fools not to keep up our guard. I can and will lead a Christian life no matter who rules my country. I would hope that I would have the love for God enough so that I would remain faithful even under severe persecution. However, why should any of us passively sit by and allow countries ruled by Muslims or by anyone else who would force us to worship in a way not given to us by God to rule us without some kind of resistence?

I thoroughly agree that America is an immodest country as a whole. I agree with the sermon that condemns our immodesty. I think the Church has not always given adequate catechesis to all of us in that area. I agree that America is essentially non Christian. I admire faithful people of all religions. But given an option I don't think any of us would choose to live under a regime that would triple tax you into poverty because you worshipped the Trinity. I wouldn't be happy living in a country that taxed others more heavily than I for NOT worshipping the Trinity.

Does that position make me a fundamentalist? Neil, should I apologize to Moe for being irritated with his charge of fundamentalism? If so, why?

I was a UM pastor for many years. I have taught Comparative Religions for several years. In both capacities I have met many people of all religions who most of us would admire greatly. I have honored them and they have honored us. I'll tell you some of those stories from time to time if you like.

But let's give it a rest. Calling others Fundamentalist because they are realistic about the ramifications of living as a Christian under Sharia is neither kind nor is it accurate.

Dan L

Alice,

Once again, what is said about "living under Islam" can also be used to discuss "living under Christendom." Read the reports of wiccans about the "burning times." Even if exaggerated, nonetheless there are elements of truth in it -- Christianity, when it was a world-ruler, also employed the same kind of force that you say makes Islam evil.

Shall we even begin to discuss _why_ the Coptics fled from Byzantium and willingly asked for Muslim help?

Henry,

All this is true. I wouldn't want to live under that either. But would you like to live under Islam today? Ask a Sudanese. Ask an Iraqi whose Churches are being destroyed. Ask a Saudi who finds it illegal to practice Christianity. Ask a Lebanese who is considered an enemy in his own country.

I would hope that I would have had the courage to stand against the excesses of The Holy Roman Empire but why would we invite this and worse upon ourselves or upon anyone else today?

Dan L

I have to agree with you, Alice. All us know university educated Muslims in this country who really are good people. These folks are no threat to anyone. Some have fled their homelands because even they don't want to live under an Islamic government. These are not the people we have to worry about. It's the Muslims who hate everything about us, our religion, our culture, our government, and anything else you can name. I also agree that when Christianity actually had political power, it didn't behave admirably. But that's in the past. We live in the present and have to protect ourselves against the people who threaten us today. I think you are right that we will not be able to coexist harmoniously with Islamic extremists. The two sides are incompatible with each other. Some would have us feel guilty about the past and ignore the threat. I guess we could throw copies of the Summa at the extremists. It's a weighty work, and depending on one's athletic ability and the accuracy of one's aim, it might be possible to take out a few of them in a fight. But you are right, we can't let our guard down. As I have said before, we need to keep our eyes open so that something like 9/11 - or worse - can't sneak up on us again.

Neil

I was not attacking Moe's character, for all I know he may be a likeable fellow. However, when he implies that a powerful group of Christians are at work to make America worse than Nazi Germany, I think he loses all credibility.

Henry,

are you refering to the Moonie agenda? The Washington Times is one of Moon's projects. From the Unification website:

Rev. Moon\'s Projects [unification.net]

But more importantly, and Neil pointed this out, Moe did not attack anyone here personally with his disagreement. Yet in response to his disagreement, Moe is subjected to attacks ad hominem. This is certainly a very intense and emmotional subject, but we should be able to conduct ourselves as the mature Christians we are and refrain from name calling.

Father-Deacon John,

Yes, that is the agenda I meant (I thought most people knew the Washington Times was a Moonie newspaper). True, at times the WT has interesting articles, but one must also understand the bias that goes in with it, and question the material according to that bias (as with all material one could read).

With Moon's religious significance, that should help understand why he wants to discredit other religions (like Islam).

As for questions like the Sudan, people usually bring up Sudan and the Islam connection. Or Nigeria. Yet the problem is politics where religion is used to help solidify political control by the leaders, who themselves do not follow the laws they establish. A professor from Nigeria gave a talk on this topic, mentioned how governors would be known to establish laws where they rule, against gambling and alcohol for example, and when on vacation would be seen gambling and drinking. When asked, they would say "well, that law is not established here, so it is ok if I do this..." despite being the ones who established the law!

This is why it is not an issue of Islam. Just like the politics involved in Ireland is not religion (IRA claims Catholicism, but distances itself from the Church which condemns them by disobedience, for example).

Alice- Why do you never mention the slaughter of Muslims that preceeded the atrocities at Chios? The horrible murder of Greek Christians was in retaliation for the Greek Christian murder of Muslims, a hardly irrelevant point.
Islam IS problematic, having a warring tradition that began with its founder. However, it always bothers me when Western Christians [and Byzantine or Latin, we are all "Western" to Islam] speak as though Muslim radicals hate the West because "we" are Christians. In fact, they hate the West because of its moral corruption and economic hegemony. Christians of an earlier era had the humility and the sense to call warring Muslims "the scourge of God", sent as chastisement of our sins. We who live in the Western pornocracy, which leads the world in production and export of weaponry, which canonizes abortion as a constitutional right instead seeing it as a crime against humanity, which by exporting our so-called "culture" seeks to destroy the souls of Muslim and other Third World children, ought to have at least as much humility.
Read any history and you will see Christians and Muslims slaughtering each other; it is the Christians who have more to answer for: they should know better.

And Moe's equating Protestant fundamentalists with Nazis was so overstated it is hard to work up much sympathy when people predictably react...

-Daniel

Daniel,

I appreciate your balanced and reasoned approach.

Dan L

Dear Iconophile,

I don't hate Muslims.

I know that Christians have committed atrocities thoughout history in the name of our Lord. However, as a Christian I still believe that I follow the correct religion, otherwise, why be a Christian?

However, I AM a Christian and I do follow CHRIST, not Allah, and certainly not Mohammed, (don't even get my priest started about him) and I still maintain that I am very weary of their agenda. Sorry, that is what I believe and that is my opinion.

I am not advocating hatred, anomosity, or intolerance. I am advocating the new world and the new history we are living, and the reality that we may one day not be able to profess OUR Creed, if we let our guard down. Islam is the largest growing religion (as pointed out the other day in a magazine I was reading, by an American girl who converted to Islam).

I pray that neither I nor my children will ever bein Islamic extremist hands, and have to choose between our Lord Jesus Christ or our lives. Many of my ancestors had to. Other Christian boys of the island were forced away from their families and made janisseries (Muslim elite corps; all recruits had to be converted to Islam).

As for the massacre of Chios, it was in 1822, and in 1821, the revolution for Greek independence started. The massacre was the reaction of the Sultan to his formerly beloved island of Chios for joining in the fight for independence. Innocent women and children surely had no part in the fight for independence did they?

I am entitled to my opinion am I not, especially if the intention is not evil or rabble?
I assure you that it is neither. I have friends and acquaintances that are modern Turks, and we harbor no anomosities between us.

And for what it is worth, I agree with you as far as America being a pornocracy and exporting this immorality to the world. It gives Islam atleast one (valid) excuse to hate us.

I don't understand why you get so worked up so easily over other's opinions?

Your friend and sister in CHRIST our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

Allah is the Arabic name for God. Your Orthodox and Catholic brethren sing praises to Allah.

I am not going to say more about what the current Patriarch of Alexandria (Orthodox, not Coptic) said about Muhammed. Let alone historical Patriarchs. You might be surprised.