www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Byzantine Seminary

If presbyteral education/formation equates one having attained a Master's degree, I hope you are not inferring that those priests who attended Ss Cyril and Methodius are not properly educated because they were not able to attain a Master's degree? (However, this is now changing thanks to the efforts of the seminary administration.) I would agree with you that a Master's degree is necessary for those attending a seminary. I am not advocating lowering standards,dumbing down, or jettisoning the seminary, but given the advances of modern technology, why can't a married man of faith, who is involved in the parish life, receive training outside the seminary model.

Fr Jack Custer posted that the seminary will be ready to receive a married candidate whenever an eparch is ready to take that step. Fr Jack, is that with or without children?

John

[ 09-10-2002: Message edited by: bisantino ]

Dear Friends,

How fascinating this all is!

I do think that we have a ways to go before we come to realize or recover the fullness of "Priestly Formation" in the true Byzantine tradition.

The emphasis on academics is important, but is clearly only one side of the coin.

A friend of mine spent years learning Latin and Italian when his Ukrainian was weak and this is the language he served his flock in.

It would seem that perhaps there should be two streams in seminary studies, academic for the professorial types and pastoral.

There seems to be very little psychology and other behavioural scientific study in the seminaries, and yet our priests are asked to guide the lives of people who are engaged in secular affairs and concerns.

Orthodox seminaries, such as St Vlad's in Winnipeg, emphasize cultural and language studies for their priestly candidates to give them a well-rounded education oriented to the cultural concerns of their Church.

Seminarians there wear their cassocks and are obliged to participate in a very full liturgical life based on the Divine LIturgy, the Divine Praises and personal prayer rooted in the Eastern Patristic traditions.

I do think that a stint in the "old country" would be good for our candidates and our priests to see how their liturgical life flourishes, how sermons are done to relate to people's lives etc.

They spend hours more in Church over there than we do. They obviously must be finding something in their Church that our people here may not be.

Having visited several Latin seminaries and spoken with seminarians and professors, I got the impression that the Latin Catholic priest is seen as being something of a spiritual elite, above the people he serves.

And that is certainly a generalization.

But our priestly-minded candidates need to be with the people more, learn not only about their problems, but about their holiness and sacrifices.

My grandfather, a priest, used to love to tell me about examples of lay holiness that, he said, outstripped anything he saw among priests and monastics.

He once told me about a woman who prayed many rosaries with great concentration, about the Slovak Greek Catholics who brought their Horologia with them to Church to recite along with the Cantor etc.

Seminaries seem to be places where people escape from the world, rather than opportunities to experience the world through the Eyes of the Gospel, as the great Melkite Hierarch, Archbishop Raya, wrote.

Alex

Querido Bisantino,
We may have to redo the basement for daycare but kids are cool!

Seriously, when you talk about married candidates for priesthood studying in a traditional seminary environment, you raise a host of practical questions. This is not, of course, how it was traditionally done. The formation happened first, then matrimony, then ordination. Married candidates who would be sent to Ss Cyril and Methodius would have to be able to relocate and probably find their own housing. There would be the massive issue of supporting the family.

If the will and the vision were there, it would be easy enough to buy an apartment house in the neighborhood for married student housing--there's even the upper 2 floors of the building currently housing the Byzantine Seminary Press <COMMERCIAL!>

The celibate seminarians who come here take a giant step down in terms of living conditions and creature comforts by any standard of middle class American life. Married candidates would need to be prepared to do the same. It sure isn't easy. But, in this season of the Holy Cross, we are reminded that the Gospel is not always easy.

Fr. Jack,

Do you really think married men who want to be Priests will uproot their families and live at the Seminary? What if their wives approve of their husbands becoming priests but have a established career and don't see the point of relocating for his training?(For example your wife is a tenured professor at a university) We aren't talking about young married couples are we? I assume at this point in our culture the preference would be older men with well established families. And there is no guarantee that if a man goes through training he will be ordained. A long stint at the seminary for married men will be a deterrent. To try to fit married candidates into a traditional celebate formation is setting married Priesthood for failure. You have to remember even though there are married men as we speak who feel called to the priesthood ,their first ministry is their families. How will you balance this? You can't look to the past for examples. Women don't just have jobs they have careers and well I'm sure you are aware of the divorce rate. Once a Bishop approves a married candidate, he the Bishop, and you folks at the seminary will also share some responsibility in helping to perserve his family life as he goes through training. Are you ready for that? In this matter, I think the gospel is going to be hard for you too.

Nicky's Baba

Young or old, the Orthodox do it. Why can't we go and do likewise? If we only dwell on reasons not to do something, that something will never get done. If "doing" involves a modern way of being a priest's wife, let that be part of our adjustment.

Just my two cents, from an ordinary kind of fool.

[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

Greetings All,

I certainly am not saying that those priests who do not have a master's degree are not prepared for the ministry. It was not that long ago that even after a traditional seminary education you did not get a masters degree. My own bishop, and also the Archbishop of Boston do not have masters degrees. I am sure there are others.

As far as married canidates. Yes they need to sacrifice. I have to sacrifice everyday. I had a career, nice place to live, life, the whole thing. It all changes when one decides to come to seminary, and your right there is nothing etched in stone that I will be ordained when it is all over in 4 years.

At Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary, where most of my classes are held, they have many mnay married students. In fact, many of the married students are older and are second career like me. They have housing for them, not like the rest of the students, they have Apts that they live in. There is also a support system for the families of the guys here.

Yes seminary is a sacrifice, yes seminary is hard. It should be both. We need people who can go the distance, and hang in there, and not run when things get difficult.

Well, off to class.

Peace to all of you,

Peter

Nicky's Baba: all good questions and I'm glad they're being aired somewhere.

We're partially back to finances--who is interested in committing how much material support to helping men respond to the call to priesthood. Regretfully, I would have to note that our Church in my lifetime seems to be reluctant to invest in people; we'd rather put our money into things--perhaps things are easier to control and less likely to disappoint than are people. . .just an out-loud thought.

Partly it's back to programs and institutions. Here are some of the issues:
1. We're a national church, so we either have to create little formation programs around the country or pull everyone into one central program. The first is a drain on staff, the second a huge strain on students.

2. CAN you do priestly formation on a part-time basis? CAN you do priestly formation as "distance learning"? I'm inclined to say "no" in both cases. Academics is only part of the package for priestly formation (spiritual, pastoral and personal formation are the other three dimensions) and even the academic study of Eastern Christian theology seems to me to demand a learning community and the time to sit with material that is deep, difficult and (hopefully) personally challenging in the life of the student.

My original observation that the seminary is "ready" for married candidates was a statement that, as far as the content of curriculum and formation goes and, more importantly, as far as VISION goes, I think we're ready to present two faces of priesthood according to the state in life our candidates are called to. The practical, structural and financial questions will have to be addressed by more authoritative folks than me.

You are absolutely right when the responsibilities of the sacramental marriage a man is already committed to must be the first priority. That, of course, is for the individual candidate to deal with as he discerns, with good spiritual directions and the prayers of us all.

Actually, Br Peter, it all changed when I decided to marry. If you think, I as a married man and a father, do not sacrifice, even not as a seminarian, you have no idea what marriage and fatherhood are all about. You do not know real sacrifice and sufferring until you become a father to teens .

John

AMEN!!!

Rather than reinventing the wheel, let's look at something that works and model it. Orthodox seminaries such as St. Vladimir's, Holy Cross, and Christ the Savior have married men studying there as we speak. We should seriously examine how they make it work, and try to duplicate their success.

Anthony

"Rather than reinventing the wheel, let's look at something that works and model it. Orthodox seminaries such as St. Vladimir's, Holy Cross, and Christ the Savior have married men studying there as we speak. We should seriously examine how they make it work, and try to duplicate their success."


Anthony,

You make too much d*mn sense. Some young, newly married Byzantine Catholics are studying at these institutions right now. I believe the trend will continue, especially for our converts who come and find that their fired-up zeal to minister has no place to go but elsewhere.

You forgot the Antiochian Orthodox and their correspondence theology program, which includes an accredited Master's Degree in Applied Orthodox Theology and even a Doctorate program, which several of our own Byzantine Catholic clergy are taking advantage of. BTW, both programs are similar to our deacon program in Pittsburgh with intensive seminars and correspondence work throughout the year. Their fourth year consists of writing a thesis.

I would like to believe that our church officials have looked into these other models of priestly studies.

The "traditional" track of studies (studies-->marriage-->ordination) isn't an option.

If seminaries can open their doors to laymen (and women) who wish to study there while living off campus, why not married men studying for the priesthood?

The problem still centers on us having no 'open door' program for seminarians contemplating marriage or have already married.

Sadly, between the drop-off years of high school (when our young men usually stop serving at the altar, especially if their pastors are dead against "adult" servers) and the post-thirties when men study for the deaconate (since in some eparchies forty is the minimum age for ordination) there is absolutely NOTHING for a man in altar-service if he is married or wants to marry. What remains is either serving at the altar as an "adult" altar boy, lectoring or cantoring. All three are unmercenary alternatives hanging out in ministry limbo.

[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: Joe T ]

Dear in Christ,

I am one of those newly married young Byzantine Catholics stuying at Saint Vladimir's. It is WONDERFUL here. The people are all very friendly. The priests treat everyone with RESPECT. The single students are treated like MEN, no one going behind them to make sure they "did their assignments right" (ie with a magnifying glass). The married students all work together to do good. There are two ex-Protestant ministers here right now, who moved with their whole families to Saint Vladimir's. I recommend this place to anyone who wants to get a degree in Eastern Christianity.

There is a lady here who is taking courses while her husband lives at home in another state, so while that might not be the best way, it's a possibility for some who have tenured spouses, or whatever.

One of our former Byzantine Catholic seminarians is here (he's now Orthodox). He's a decent fellow.

Getting back to our Seminary, they'll have to accept married men, AND they'll have to make some changes in the way they treat students. I won't post gossip and innuendo on this forum, but I just wnat to make it clear that by accepting married men, things won't immediately change.

In Christ,

anastasios

Fr. Jack,

I believe qualified married candidates outside of the east of Cleveland & surrounding Pittsburgh area will have less of an opportunity to attend our Seminary and have less of an opportunity to become a Priest. If it will be absolutely necessary for candidates to live near and attend a Seminary regularly, I see a future of married candidates attending Seminaries nearer to their homes and not being educated at Sts. Cyril & Methodius. As far as young married candidates will we see anyone under 40 yrs of accepted by their Bishop?

Nicky's Baba

Oooops, too late. You just did.

Well I suppose that that does count as innuendo in a way, but I did refrain from putting all sorts of "juicy details" on the forum in gossip-style. But the fact is the seminary WILL have to start treating people better, because some very decent people have left the seminary (including the best man at my wedding) partly over the way people are treated there.

In Christ,

anastasios

Married men have attended and been ordained out of Holy Spirit Seminary and St. Paul University/Sheptytsky Institute in Ottawa, Ontario. Our eparchy has a couple of married men in priestly formation there now. It is kind of the opposite of St. Vlads - there are several Orthodox clergy and laity studying at the Sheptytsky Institute which has an Eastern Catholic priest for a director.

St. Vlads seems to work so well...why can't we work together for something like that for Eastern Catholic seminarians in the USA? Are we so worried about turf that we can't work for the good of all of the Eastern Catholic churches in the US? Right on Staso - I think you made a wise choice. I'd have a tough choice between Ottawa or St. Vlads.

[ 09-11-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]