www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Witnessing to a 7th day Adventist

Recently, I got an email from a 7th Day Adventist who had seen one of my posts, and was upset because he thought I was disgracing Ellen White. I tried to explain to him about Orthodoxy, which is my faith. He obviously thinks Orthodox are the same as Roman Catholics, because he was ranting and raving about the RC Church. Today, I tried to explain to him that the Orthodox Church is a separate entity, to clear up his obvious ignorance.

He ranted and raved about how RC's worship Mary, how they profaned the Gospel, etc., etc. I asked him to sit down and compare what his church teaches and believes to what the ancient Church believed. If his church cannot be traced back to the apostles, doesn't have bishops and apostolic succession, then nothing else matters, he is not in the true church, and subjects like Mary, the immortality of the soul, the Sat. Sabbath, etc. don't even matter. WHAT DID THE ANCIENT CHURCH BELIEVE AND DOES YOUR CHURCH BELIEVE THE SAME WAY? was the main question I asked him.

Was this the right approach? The man is very angry and hostile, so whether he actually studies the ancient church for himself I doubt. I couldn't think of any books that might help a person of his persuasion to understand the Orthodox Church.

What would your reply be if you got an email from an angry Seventh-day Adventist?

I have found these people profoundly Anti-Catholic. It seems the whole reason they exist is to proove how the RCC is the Whore of Babylon, the Pope the AntiChrist and anyone who worships on Sunday is in cahoots with the Devil. I do not believe there is any reasoning with these people, as they are fundamentalists, in the Taliban sense.

Well...perhaps not THAT bad...they don't run training camps and fly airplanes into buildings and stuff like that...but now that there's a vacancy, watch out! :p

I find it easier to work with the JW's. Every so often they come to my house on a Saturday morning and my brother gets the door. They start talking about the end times, and my brother immediately calls me over because he doesn't like dealing with such people. I tell them I'm Catholic, just to see what'll happen. They usually go with stuff like "Do you know your Church, by practicing celibacy, and worshipping Mary, and believing in communion like you do, etc. is in error?"

I usually go with my standby. I read them John 1:1 in their Bible translation where the Word "was a god". I tell them that no Bible has ever translated it that way, and that "their Church" preached two gods, and that this was way worse than anything my Church was accused of doing...and then I'd explain all those things too...but the polytheism charge REALLY throws them for a loop.

They usually don't bother us for at least six months.

Anyway, don't worry so much about the Adventists...I've known some good ones, and have never been attacked or anything. But if they're as anti-Catholic as akemner indicates, don't try too hard...they probably will not listen.

Once this girl instant messaged me and wanted to talk about Jesus. So we did, and things were going splendidly until she asked what Church I belonged to, and again, I said I was Catholic. The usual rants about how Catholics have been mislead and stuff came, and then after the rant she said she was glad she met me. Seems she had "25 theses" that she wanted me to read. So I read them, and most of them were peripheral issues like worshipping images and stuff. So I sat down, and taking one thesis at a time I answered with what the actual belief is, plus scripture and quotes from the Fathers. My answer came out to something like thirty pages...I had a boring first week of July last year.

She never spoke to me again, except once, to let me know that I made her cry so much after she read it, and that it wasn't good for her spiritually to talk to me anymore...kinda like how she doesn't "read the works of heretics". I guess I'm a heretic...

In most cases, people like that just won't listen. All that you've got to do is defend the faith as well as you can. If you can't answer something, figure it out and get back to them. But don't push it...they don't like alternative opinions, just their own. After a while, the only thing you can do for them is pray for them.

OH...tell them you're making a novena to Our Lady of Fatima or something for their conversion...that'll drive them up a wall!

The Seventh-Day Adventists are decent people, with high moral standards and, I believe, many of them are pacifists.

Why ruin their moral and spiritual lives by inviting them to become like us, Catholics or Orthodox?

Best left alone, would be by response.

That would be the charitable thing to do.


Sonny

You mean, like us, indecent people with low moral standards, and I believe, a warmongering tendency?

The thing speaks for itself.

When I said Taliban sort, meant that they are so fundementalist, that they put religion to the extreme interpretations. I tend to be leary of people who call themselves Christians and have no concept of Christianity before 1920 (one of their tracts against the heresy of keeping the Lord's day on Sunday confirmed this opinion-all but two quotes dated from 1900-1950; the other two were Martin Luther taken badly out of context). I would not think they would be terrorists, but they are know for their ads in large media markets.

A Seventh Day Adventist once told me that they don't oppose abortion since they don't believe in souls, so that fetus is just a bunch of tissue until it's born.....

Once I was on the bus and the bus driver was like, "The ROMAN Catholic Church made everyone worship on Sunday! WHORE OF BABYLON!" I was like, sure buddy!

To Sonny, how can someone that calls someone else's church the "Whore of Babylon" be moral?

In Christ,
anastasios

It is one thing to call another person's church the "Whore of Babylon," and another thing to act like the "Whore of Babylon."

The latter if far more immoral than the former.

Long live the glorious names of Savonarola and Jan Hus, true Catholics and saints of God.

sonny,

Where the 7th Day Adventist will led you down under:

1st. They do NOT believe in the Trinity.

2nd. They do NOT believe in Baptism.

3rd. They do NOT believe in the Eucharist.

I would say NOT to leave them alone if they aproach you! That is not to say you should go out and Proselytize them. But, if approached it is your Christian duty to tell them of the "Good News".


Which leds me to a Bigger question. What is the very basics one must believe to be called a Christian. I don't believe 7th Day are Christians.

I would say Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodist, Luthernians, etc. are all Christian because they believe in the very Basics.

My theory of Basics is this:

1. Trinity
2. Baptism
3. Forgiveness of Sins
4. Bible is the Word of God

What is your Opinion?

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Good question anastasios, also if we believe that the True Church subsist within the Universal Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.....

How is it charitable to allow someone to live in error?

David

I would like to see Christianity return to its roots: to become a Jesus centered religion that emphasizes (like he did), relationships and behavior, not abstractions and theological speculations that were of no interest to him.

Because Christianity has degenerated into a "school of abstract speculation" and has abandoned its Jewish roots, it has become a haven for sick and perverse people who believe they can find refuge in adhering to abstractions (called dogma!) while living perverse lives.


We could certainly learn a great deal about living like Christ Jesus from these good and kindhearted "heretics."

God bless these good disciples of Christ.


May they increase and may we (the perverse and evil Orthodox and Catholics) decrease.

Sonny

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Oh I see we have a Protestant here.

Ok Sonny, would you like to talk about Jesus and his Church?

God Loves You Sonny and He wants you to know the Truth! Will you open your heart and mind to the Truth?

Christ said, "The Truth Shall Set You Free!"

I would like for you to be Free Sonny.

This can be an very exciting time in your life.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!

First preach to yourself. When I am convinced you are living a Christ-like life, then you can preach to me. "You shall know them by their fruits,"....and not by their rhetoric. I remember, as a boy, watching mafiosi receive the eucharist on Sundays. Do you want to conjecture a guess about what they were doing the next day?

Protestant? No. But I don't object to the esteemed label since I can make a good point that Jesus of Nazareth was the first "pro'testant." He certainly protested against evil and hypocrisy, didn't he? But it does seem to me that more Protestants have a deeper personal awareness of the love of God and Jesus than Catholics and Orthodox. I suppose that is why so many Latin Americans and Russians are converting to Protestantism.

You don't have to preach to me about the love of God since my mother did a fine job of that long before you were probably born.

Sonny

Sony,

Would you mind saying something about yourself? What denomination are you: Baptist, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Indep. Baptist, Non-Denominational Baptist, Church of the Naz., Church of God, Church of Christ, 7th Day Adv., Pentacostal, Jehova Witness, Apostolic Church of God, etc...?

What are your grips about the One, Holy, Apostolic, catholic/orthodox Church?

God Bless!

1) Seventh Day Adventists do believe in the Trinity.

2) Sonny, Dogmas lead us to knowledge of God. Without knowledge of God, we cannot experience him. The Eastern Catholic/Orthodox tradition is big on "experiencing" and participating in God (theosis). I know a lot of Catholics and Orthodox who are trying hard to live good lives. You are uncharitable in your haughty assumptions that Catholics and Orthodox aren't really living their faiths--and you try to veil it by saying "we Catholics and Orthodox". Please don't be so judgemental--Jesus didn't like that sort of thing.

In Christ,

anastasios

How about...The Apostolic Church of the Messiah of the Old Believer Proletariat of the Latinized Byzantine Exarchate of Holkols and Rusnaks of Galicia and South Bronx. Is that exotic enough?

What are my gripes...., etc.?

Its propensity to make covenants with the Evil One and subvert the gospel in the name of power and riches; and its willingness to cooperate and collaborate with those who exploit and oppress the poor and the weak.

Sonny

Amen! May perverse and evil Christians everywhere decrease, and may good, honest, virtuous, and holy Christians everywhere increase!

But that's a different issue altogether than inviting them to embrace our faith, which is the faith of the apostles and saints, and given to us by them, and to them by Christ.

May the Ellen Whites and Charles Taze Russells of the world decrease, and may Christ increase, to the glory of God the Father!

The only knowledge St. Paul sought was that of Christ Jesus. The same can be said of the Old Believers. Their primitive creed and simple moral code has served them well.

We should be so blessed.


Sonny

Sonny,

First, let me say I came accross Arrogant to you in my previous post. I am still a little upset with Abdur (I guess I take these things personally when I should not (see my post - relations with Islam and part II). I hope you accept my apology.

Now you said, "Its propensity to make covenants with the Evil One and subvert the gospel in the name of power and riches; and its willingness to cooperate and collaborate with those who exploit and oppress the poor and the weak."

Would you please explain this to me?

God Bless!
Your Friend in Christ!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aRomanCatholic@Work:
[QB]Sonny,

Now you said, "Its propensity to make covenants with the Evil One and subvert the gospel in the name of power and riches; and its willingness to cooperate and collaborate with those who exploit and oppress the poor and the weak."

"Would you please explain this to me?"

You aren't arrogant. No apology is required.

Here is an example of what I mean:

During the First World War, while millions of Russian soldiers were dieing at the front, and even more Russian civilians were starving to death at home, the Russian Orthodox church gathered for a "sobor" in either Moscow or St.Petersburg. What was the all consuming topic of debate and conversation? Was it relief for the poor? Was it making peace and ending a war that was already lost?

No, it was none of these. It was the "cut and style of vestments." Let me repeat that: It was the cut and style of vestments.

Multiply that type of criminal and psychotic indifference thousands of times over in the history of the the Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant churches and you will understand my point of view.

But the tiny Russian Mennonite sect and Anabaptists did risk their meagre resources and even their lives to save the poor and sick, while the corrupt aristocratic bishops of Russia spent their days gorgeing their already bloated bellies with hot food and their nights sleeping in warm beds.

God bless the Mennonite and Anabaptist heretics.

Sonny

I think I need a healthy infusion of liberation theology.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

"Judgement begins in [with] the church."--St.Paul?

Sonny,

You bring up some GREAT points. Unfortunetly, Russian History is not my strong point. I must be humble here. Serge I believe is an expert in this field. Hopefully, he will give his 2 cents worth.

There have been many times in the history of the Church when Church officials have errored and even sinned. However, if the Church has her vellions She diffenetly has Her Heroes! The Churches History is filled with stories of Mother Tersas, St. Maximillian, St. Teras the Little Flower, Padra Pio's, St. Francis of Assia, etc...

We are not perfect! After all we are sinners who are in need of God's mercy. I will say this no Church in History has done more Good for Mankind than the Catholic/Orthodox Church. It is too bad that many people never hear of the good of the Church.

Sonny,

Wow, a lot of bishops did sin! Then again, so did a lot of lay people! I bet Mennonites sinned, too! And didn't the early anabaptists turn from anti-war to a dictatorial society that murdered its own citizens? Wow, every group has good and bad, and we can't paint such broad pictures, can we?!

Sonny, i agree with you that we need to make sure the church gets cleaned up and we need to keep cleaning it. But there were bad people even with the Apostles--ie like Judas! Don't make it out like it is the fault of the "instutional" church!

anastasios

If the Seventh-Day Adventists are Trinitarian, they are Christian. If not, they are not.

The only things I definitely know about Russian church history in the period discussed are that, shortly before, the Holy Synod had been considering translating the services into modern Russian* to better evangelize people and that after the fall of the Tsar, the Church was free to break with Peter the Great's imposed patriarchless Church government with the lay Oberprokurator** sitting in on the Holy Synod and elected now-St Tikhon patriarch of Moscow and all Rus'.

Conjecture: because it was the state Church, I am sure it backed now-St Tsar Nicholas II in getting mired in World War I, which was wrong.

It sounds like a Communist swipe at the Church, but if it is true the bishops debated the cut of vestments while Russians were dying and starving, then I side with Anastasios in saying bishops, like Tsars, can make big mistakes in judgement like that. And so what if it was a собор (council)? The Holy Synod wasn't holding an ecumenical council and therefore was fallible.

*Source: Bishop Kallistos, The Orthodox Church — perhaps there is more need of it now than then.

**His German title gave away the fact that Tsar Peter got the idea from the Lutherans, thinking it would be ideal to make the Church obey him.

http://oldworldrus.com

I don't believe it is all the fault of the institutional church: institutions need "generals" and generals need "troops."

I just quoted a particular example that I find especially repulsive and it happened to focus on the sins of the "generals."


On the other hand, there are venial sins and there are mortal sins, and you would have to admit, that the incident I cited is particularly egregious.

But we are of very different generations and life experiences---I still admire Hans Kung, love Chardin, and have a great interest---even now---in liberation theology and left-wing and Marxist Christianity.

Of course, there is no need to argue over or debate these issues.

Sonny

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I know several Seventh Day Adventists. They are a result of the Millerite Great Disappointment of 1844 when Christ did not appear as predicted by AnaBaptist Revivalist Miller. There were many protestant people affected by the "Great Disappointment". The Seventh Day Adventist Prophetess Ellen White brought about through visions consolation to many of these believers. Her revelations included that Worship of God was to be on the Sabbath only (Friday sunset to Saturday at Sunset) not on the Lord's Day Sunday and this became one of the peculiar beliefs of this Church. She explained that Christ did return but to the Spiritual Temple in Heaven to prepare for his Second Advent(thus the name Adventists). Some other beliefs that she presented were the equality of believers (race and sex are unimportant to Adventists). Pacifism was encouraged and Vegetarianism promoted. The Adventists advocate for healthy vegetarian lives. They were founders of the famous Battle Creek Sanitarium of Kellogg fame. Adventists were inventors of many of the fast food grain cereals we enjoy today.

The problems that Seventh Day Adventism presents to the Byzantine Christian is their rejection of all Christian History after the New Testament as apostacy and heresy, i.e the Roman and Byzantine Churches were in error. They have little or no knowledge of historic Christianity, the Church Fathers, or Apostolic Teachings found in our Churches. When their belief system is challenged by facts they tend to withdraw from the interaction to avoid entering Heresy.

HOW TO WORK WITH A SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST:
1) Introduce them to Byzantine Worship as a Seven Day a week Worship---The Hours, the Vigils, the Divine Liturgy.
2) Know what services we may do on Friday Night and Saturday, then explain to them that we also worship on the "Lord's Day" Sunday in celebration of His Glorious Ressurection.[My Adventist friends have been amazed at the number of worship services we do and can not charge that we do not do "Sabbath Worship" but see that we have Sabbath and (Kyrikos) Lord's Day Worship as well---i.e. we do more than they have been told is required].
3) Share with them the Psalter, the hymns of the great feasts. Talk to them of the great Saints Athansius, Chrysostom, Ireneus, Polycarp, etc.
4) Give them the writings of the Early Church fathers so full of Biblical quotation, personal knowledge, and the Holy Spirit.

During this time, I continuously do Akathists and pray for the Holy Spirit to touch their lives.

It will be a slow process and you may find that you only plant seeds with no immediate harvest but you will find they usually are less hostile and more open as you progress. As you give them information, give it in small bites---it is easier to eat an apple in small bites that to eat an apple in one gulp.

As to issues pertaining to images/icons, when that topic comes up give them St John of Damascus' "In Defense of the Holy Icons". Always let the Holy Fathers be the teachers and you will be more successful than trying to wing it on your own. It is important that we remember there is not a single challenge to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church that modern man brings up that the Holy Fathers have not addressed in come capacity---it just takes time to locate it, print it out, and share it.


Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Surely, Thomas you are full of wisdom! GREAT post!

Dear Sonny,

I found your mention of Savonarola and Hus to be very interesting, as I venerate both of them, and their canonization and rehabilitation processes are progressing in Rome itself!

The Adventists present more of a sociological than a theological challenge to us, I believe, and I think you've pointed this out.

Theologically, they repeat the 19th century views of Rome and the Church.

They also rest their case for Sabbatarianism on the one passage where Christ declares Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath.

There are different approaches to groups such as these and no one approach is better or more effective.

First of all, the idea of quoting the Fathers and others to them in defence of Orthodoxy is really like whistling in the wind.

Their commitment to their church won't change because, "Omigosh, all of a sudden, I realize the Catholic (or Orthodox) Church is the Truth! etc."

If a person is abusive, (e.g. Whore of Babylon) it is best to end the conversation with something like "If that is how you represent the Love of Christ, you simply cannot be 'of Christ.'"

No one should have to put up with that, plain and simply.

If one wishes to have a serious conversation with us, that is different.

But this presupposes solid study of their faith. It is best, in such a case, to focus on what they believe and the issues that their belief raises for mainstream Christianity.

They are not taught to be critical of their faith, only that of others.

To emphasis a critical assessment of their faith, if one wanted to do that, would make them either go away, or else, and possibly, lead them on the road to different thoughts . . .

Alex

Good replies, Sonny's being quite interesting. I understand where you're coming from. I know some people who call themselves Orthodox, but live their lives as if they were Satanists. They are ignorant of their own faith, and in love with the world. On the other hand, I know some Protestants who are wonderful people who are truly following Christ and the faith as they understand it. However, I know many Orthodox and Catholics who are holier than I probably ever will be, and they just shine with Christian beauty! The Church is a mixed bag, full of good and bad. Other churches have good and bad, too. I'm sure there are many atheists, Hindus, and New Agers who live good, decent lives. But they still need to know the truth, and when given the chance, we are obliged to humbly point them to the Ancient Church, which alone teaches the gospel in its fullness

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Brother, Alex

In my seminary classes that I have taken relating to witnessing to non-orthodox sects (i.e. Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesss, Seventh Day Adventists, etc) we were specifically taught that the Holy Fathers have already answered the challenges of these sects and heterodox errors. My instructors made great efforts to note that Satan has not changed his tactics and really does not bring new ideas, only old ones that have been warmed up in modern language.

We were instructed to know the Holy Fathers, research their responses, and use those responses when we witness the Orthodox Way to these sects. One does not have to state that Saint so and so said but rather use their apolegetics to defend the Faith. While Seventh Day Adventists and members of other such sects are very difficult to change their belief systems(it usually takes years of careful presentation). I know this a a former of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). It took me 10 years before the Holy Spirit finally hit me over the head and I got out of the Mormon Church. I entered into the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church and have been here the last 16 years. It was the gently feeding of what,I now know, was the voice of the Church Fathers that brought me out of the sect and into orthodox belief. [By the way, I highly recommend St Anthansius' Paschal Letters to anyone witnessing to Mormons.]

Otherwise I am in full agreement with your statement above.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Dear Brother Thomas,

Yes, I am not advocating going out and looking for trouble in witnessing to the Witnesses and others.

When I was teaching religion in a "cooperative" school (whatever that means - I still don't know), a woman teacher from Ukraine approached me and asked me to speak to her sister who was being hit on by Jehovah Witnesses and her family was very upset etc.

I said I wasn't qualified, what if I screw up etc.

She insisted, so I called my pastor who encouraged me to go ahead and meet her. When I told him I wasn't qualified, he generously told me if I wasn't, nobody was . . .

But then the principal found out about this, called me and told me to "stay out of it." (Her sister-in-law was a Witness, it turned out.

I was berated mercilessly. The teacher came and hugged me and told me she was sorry for the trouble she caused.

Out of fear and timidity, I did not meet with her sister who became a Witness anyway.

To this day, I feel bad about it, about my cowardice and the fact that I allowed myself to be bullied in this way. I resigned my position as religion teacher, since I felt completely compromised.

I'm not saying that my meeting with the woman would have prevented her from joining that cult.

I'm saying that I failed in my duty and charity to try.

And I won't do that again, God helping me.

Alex