www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Sedevacantism

Hello again. I'ts been a while since I last checked this topic. I am still interested, and I hope to read more on this matter as time passes. God bless you. Paul.

All anyone needs to know about sedevacantism is that it's as nutty as a fruitcake.

I clicked on that strange (to be polite) website and found this: "An appeal for resignation of ex-Pope Benedict XVI" http://uogcc.org.ua/en/actual/article/?article=5532 so I guess they have moved over to the 'dark side' and are now sedevacantists?

Originally Posted by DMD

I clicked on that strange (to be polite) website and found this: "An appeal for resignation of ex-Pope Benedict XVI" http://uogcc.org.ua/en/actual/article/?article=5532 so I guess they have moved over to the 'dark side' and are now sedevacantists?

Ah, David, thank you for bringing that to our attention And, yes, so it would seem.

Knowing that the 'Patriarchate' has the matter well in hand, I can now sleep peacefully. (And to think that we once considered the Transalpine Redemptorists and the Society of St Josaphat to be the ultimate fringe groups to have derived from the Eastern Catholic sector.)

With all due respect to my Ukrainian brethren, Catholic and Orthodox, I find myself thinking back to a comment that I made here several years back. There is no question as to the devotion of the Ukrainian ECs and EOs, who truly suffered greatly for decades and yet continue faithful and observant members of their respective Churches, but the sheer number of Ukrainians who are compelled to erect 'their own' Church, Patriarchate. Metropolia, etc, is amazing.

Many years,

Neil

What's nutty is what happened at Vatican II. It taught [sites.google.com] things which the church had forbidden, establishing a new church. It's unclear if there is a pope, but there have been periods of sede vacante before and there's no teaching on their maximum length.

In 1861, Cardinal Henry Manning [en.wikipedia.org] wrote: "The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts very new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatize from the Faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. ... Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible; hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church."

At la Salette, our Lady spoke [catholictradition.org] of a church in eclipse. She is now, which explains a lot.

Your observation about my Ukrainian friends reminds me of an old dinner 'joke' the late Bishop John (Martin) would tell many years ago.

It seems that there was a Carpatho-Russian boy named George who dreamed of being a sailor, even though his village was far from the sea. As time went by he came to America and joined the Navy. During the war his ship was sunk in the Pacific and he was the sole survivor. He was guided to a deserted island where he dedicated his life to St. Nicholas, the protector of sailors and he lived like a modern day Robinson Crusoe.

Many years after the war a Navy ship saw smoke from his fire and they came to rescue him. The sailors who came ashore were amazed to see the beautiful tropical home he built along with a fantastic chapel. However, they were surprised to see three abandoned, decrepit structures which clearly were churches at one time.

"I thought you said you were alone on the island," said the sailor to George. "Why are there three abandoned churches?"

"That's simple," said George. "I went to them before the fights broke out."

I am following all of this with sincere interest. I thank you all.

Paul,

While there are any number of folk here who are conflicted from time to time in never being sure of exactly how they should, would, or want to understand the papacy or how they'd prefer that the papacy understand itself, we none of us - Catholic or Orthodox - are unclear on whether there is a pope. So, let's make this clear from the outset - this is an Eastern Christian forum.

While we enjoy or cringe (depending on the particulars) the occasional reports of the antics engaged in by episcopi vagante, we are not particularly interested in the doings of those who cannot deal with reality - be they conclavists, mysticalists, or just outright sedes.

To us, when one speaks the term sede vacante, we're most apt to think sadly on our Ruthenian and Carpatho-Rusyn brethren, deprived of primatial hierarchs by the repose in Our Lord of Metropolitans Basil and Nicholas, both of blessed memory.

If you want to promote the belief that there is no sitting pope or that there has not been one for however many decades past that you so convinced yourself, I heartily recommend a visit to any of the hardcore trad sites, where the topic might be greeted and appreciated as news of the day.

It's unlikely to catch on here as a recurring or even one-off theme, likely being shelved until we do our next annual census of folk whose laz-y-boy recliners double as cathedras and whose neighbors turn green with the hope that they can someday afford such liturgical accoutrements to spice up their garage.

Many years,

Neil

Hi, Irish Melkite. I confess I'd not heard of that use of "sedevacantism". I'm not sure if Sielos was talking about that or about the SVism which concerns the Roman see.

Paul,

In describing it as 'nutty as a fruitcake' (an assessment that I might have phrased differently, but one with which I can't seriously disagree). my brother, sielos, was speaking of 'sedevacantism' as it is traditionally used by sedes - those who erroneously assert that the See of Rome is vacant by reason of the current and one or more prior popes not holding office validly.

The term 'sede vacante' is, literally, the 'Seat is vacant' - and refers to the interregnum between the death, resignation, or deposition of a hierarch and the election or appointment of a successor hierarch. It is most commonly heard with regard to the period subsequent to the death of a pope and the election of his successor, during which time the postage stamps issued by the State of the City of Vatican City have, historically, been overprinted with those words.

Although the context is less commonly used in common parlance, it similarly describes any other episcopal interregnum, such as is presently the case in both the Metropolia of Pittsburgh of the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the US, the Sees last headed by the two beloved Metropolitans of blessed memory to whom I referred.

Many years,

Neil

Many thanks, Neil.

"Sede vacante" can also be rendered as "the see being unoccupied". I think it's an ablative absolute and describes a continuing situation. It's thus grammatically verbal while semantically adjectival. I assume that that situation describes what's happening in those dioceses you describe.

"Sedevacantism", a noun and the stated subject of this thread, is, indeed, generally used to describe the movement of people who hold the position that Rome has been deprived of a bishop, at least a visible one.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can describe the dioceses you mentioned as being sede vacante without being a sedevacantist. Above, I tried to explain why the latter position is based on fact - particularly the way that Rome has changed its teaching.

I appreciate this is an eastern forum, but I'd suggest that the matter is of relevance to all Christians, including those who call themselves eastern or Byzantine Catholics and/or uniates. The holy Ghost wouldn't change his mind.