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Allow me first to apologize - it's Sunday night in Ireland and I'm exhausted, so I lack the strength to plow through all the postings. But someone, somewhere has asked if the Divine Liturgy could be translated into "Elizabethan English".
I would be willing to attempt such a translation, even though I am neither English nor Elizabethan - I would modify the desription to traditional hieratic (sacral) English. My favorite model is the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, with modifications for our purposes; for the Psalms I would base myself on the Holy Transfiguration Psalter, reserving the possibility of changing this or that specific instance.
While I don't know of any previous attempts to do this with the 1941 Ruthenian Church-Slavonic text specifically in mind, the field is not altogether new either - Schemahieromonk Theodore (secular name Michael G. H. Gelsinger) of holy memory, Archbishop Alexis van der Mensbrugghe of holy memory and of course Archbishop Joseph Raya all used variations on the hieratic functional level (in Archbishop Joseph's case he gave "modern English" a serious try for a period of years, and found it less than satisfactory).
One definite advantage of such a version is that it would not be "culture-bound" to any particular dialect of English as currently spoken. Shakespeare, the King James Version of the Bible, and the writings of Alexander Pope are perennially popular all over the English-speaking world (among literate people, that is - and I concede that literacy is receding these days). I know a deacon who specializes in dialects of English to be found in the USA; at the moment its only television that keeps a reasonable possibility of mutual understanding among various speakers of "American English", whatever that may be.
[Side comment: when the Saint John of Kronstadt Press published the 12-volume Menaion in English a decently-educated friend of mine looked at the books and commented that he could not imagine American people using such a text. When I responded that American people produced the text, American people published it, and the bulk of the purchasers are Americans, my friend gave me the strangest look.]
Anyway, I will welcome some feed-back on this. Not as something to be imposed on anyone by anyone, but as a posssible alternate version, who would like to see such a translation?
Serge Keleher
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I am not sure we need to start from scratch when there are fine versions in use between the ROCOR, HTM, OCA, and Antiochians to start with a few - and one could throw in the Erie Old Ritualist translations as well.
To dispel the notion that hieratic English scares people off, I would point to the jurisdictions in Orthodoxy most well known for hieratic English, i.e. ROCOR and the Antiochians, and posit their successes at growth of new missions is the envy of many in the Eastern Christian world. Apparently it doesn't scare everyone off.
FDD
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Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
Allow me first to apologize - it's Sunday night in Ireland and I'm exhausted, so I lack the strength to plow through all the postings. But someone, somewhere has asked if the Divine Liturgy could be translated into "Elizabethan English".
I would be willing to attempt such a translation, even though I am neither English nor Elizabethan - I would modify the desription to traditional hieratic (sacral) English. My favorite model is the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, with modifications for our purposes; for the Psalms I would base myself on the Holy Transfiguration Psalter, reserving the possibility of changing this or that specific instance.
While I don't know of any previous attempts to do this with the 1941 Ruthenian Church-Slavonic text specifically in mind, the field is not altogether new either - Schemahieromonk Theodore (secular name Michael G. H. Gelsinger) of holy memory, Archbishop Alexis van der Mensbrugghe of holy memory and of course Archbishop Joseph Raya all used variations on the hieratic functional level (in Archbishop Joseph's case he gave "modern English" a serious try for a period of years, and found it less than satisfactory).
One definite advantage of such a version is that it would not be "culture-bound" to any particular dialect of English as currently spoken. Shakespeare, the King James Version of the Bible, and the writings of Alexander Pope are perennially popular all over the English-speaking world (among literate people, that is - and I concede that literacy is receding these days). I know a deacon who specializes in dialects of English to be found in the USA; at the moment its only television that keeps a reasonable possibility of mutual understanding among various speakers of "American English", whatever that may be.
[Side comment: when the Saint John of Kronstadt Press published the 12-volume Menaion in English a decently-educated friend of mine looked at the books and commented that he could not imagine American people using such a text. When I responded that American people produced the text, American people published it, and the bulk of the purchasers are Americans, my friend gave me the strangest look.]
Anyway, I will welcome some feed-back on this. Not as something to be imposed on anyone by anyone, but as a posssible alternate version, who would like to see such a translation?
Serge Keleher Serge, I'm sure a number of others have mentioned this as well, but I broached this subject in the "Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy" thread last night and got no response there.... -------------------------------------- Question.... Would any of you think I'm an old crackpot for wishing we could have a Divine Liturgy using Elizabethan language? Be kinda neat to me to be able to chant "And with THY spirit"...haven't ever said that since I was a kid in the Episcopal Church Who can tell me what - if any - Orthodox jurisdictions use such language in their English liturgies? -------------------------------------- I'd really enjoy seeing your "Liturgia Divina Elizabethana", so get to your composition, please!  And I see where Father Deacon Diak has answered my question re: Orthodox jurisdictions using Elizabethan language in their liturgies. Sam
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Be kinda neat to me to be able to chant "And with THY spirit"... Sam, I would agree - but then again I am soneone who loves the Old Rite as well. FDD
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Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
I would be willing to attempt such a translation, even though I am neither English nor Elizabethan - I would modify the desription to traditional hieratic (sacral) English. My favorite model is the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, with modifications for our purposes; for the Psalms I would base myself on the Holy Transfiguration Psalter, reserving the possibility of changing this or that specific instance. Father Serge, This sounds like a marvellous project for consideration. It also sounds like quite a bit of work! Should we wait for the Horologion as well?  :p Stauropegion Press may be kept rather busy! Praise God! Gordo
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Our Liturgikon, prayer/service books and so on use what I guess would be termed traditional or sacral English. I'm not sure you would call it "Elizabethan" though, at least in the purest sense. Our other materials follow this pattern as well such as the use of the AV (Psalter aside) for all readings from Holy Scripture. Our choir also uses HTM resources a good deal including their Horologian for Troparia and the commemoration of saints.
This form of langauge is definitely my preference. Although I enjoy and look forward to visiting parishes of other jurisdictions, I have to say I usually find the English translations they use not to be to my liking.
Just as a side note, I read an article that said the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in this country introduced the use of English in the 1950's and used traditional language up until 1965 when it was abandoned in favor of the use of modern English.
Andrew
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Well, to produce such a translation is not an overwhelming task - and, of course, I shall take into account the research that has been done over the past few decades. A sacral idiom does not mean obscurantism.
Fr Serge
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
A translation like this was done by the Eparchy of Stamford in 1954 (I think it was Elizabethan English, at least). The translation has the Church Slavonic (in both the original characters and transliterated into Latin script characters) on one side, and the English translation on the other.
--Mark Therrien
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I have it, and I have recommended it to others. But there has been significant scholarship since then, and the book does include a few clear errors (of which my favorite is giving a passage from the New Testament and claiming that it occurs in the Septuagint version of the NT - an obvious impossibility).
Fr Serge
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All, Archbishop Dimitri of Dallas and the South has done such a translation. The translation is used here widely among the OCA parishes in the Dallas area. Although I not have a copy of it to share online, you can access the link below and hear the liturgy sung by our choir. Simply go to the listen now tab on the site. http://www.stsavaplano.org/
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Thank you for the link Mark of Ephesus, I'm listening to the liturgy now. I have heard that his grace's translation is used mostly in the Diocese of the South.
Andrew
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Rilian,
Also, you will want to take note of the text of the Holy Gospel that is read. The translation used is a corrected and slightly modified King James version. I believe Vladyka also had a hand in the Gospel translation.
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