www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Liturgy is Promulgated!

Dear Deacon Lance,

I've heard that before on this Forum, but have never been to an ACROD church so I don't know this first hand. Perhpas once this all goes through with the Byzantines, I'll visit an ACROD church. Maybe that could be my new home, as it was for my Grandfather.

Do you know if ACROD will be changing their books with this new translation? How did it come about that they use our current translation? Does Metropolitan Nicholas approve of what our Bishops have approved.

I'm not going to leave without trying to stop the new Liturgy, but it's good to know there's a place for me to go.

And for Ung-Certez, I'm Rusyn -- but I don't see how that matters. Can you explain?

Dear Athanasius,
On the relatively rare occasions that I have occasions to serve in English, the OCA translation is what I use. So far the sky has not fallen.

Fr. Serge

Dear Fr. Serge:
Indeed the sky has not fallen. I love the OCA translation-so much so that I'm going to try to persuade my wife to attend an OCA Divine Liturgy for a feast day at some point or perhaps for Vespers, since Vespers is not offered at our parish.
Ryan

Dear Athanasius,
I wouldn't say the OCA translation is beyond criticism. Its model is the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, which is also not beyond criticism. But of the existing English versions of the Bible I prefer the RSV for general use, and the same goes for the OCA translation.

Fr. Serge

Mons. Nitkiewicz is a Pole, not Slovak.
Miroslav Stefan Marusyn was at thar time a titular Archbishop, not just "Father" (a secretary to the Roman Congregation is usually a bishop); now, of course, he's retired.
Ukraine is just Ukraine, without "the".

Stephanie,

Then say you grandparents were "off the boat Rusyns", and not Slovaks. Two different Slav groups, with different languages and customs.

Ungcsertezs

There is a discussion at Mere Comments,(http://merecomments.typepad.com/ -scroll down to January 13th) a discussion site of Touchstone magazine, about the translation of "anthropos."
There is discussion which explains why "all people" is a poor translation of "mankind," and why "mankind" is preferable.
Here is a quote from that discussion:

"The purposeful mistranslation of "anthropoi" has the same effect, irregardless of the PC agenda. When we hear "people," we think of individual men and women, in the modern sense, with a sense of identity and all that hooey. "Men," on the other hand, conveys unity, a common hypostasis."
Full disclosure-I think the John Peterson who wrote this comment is probably my son (who, by the way, is Antiochian Orthodox.)

The discussion was about Bible translation, not about our new translation of the liturgy, but the same principle applies.
As for "loves us all" it is weak and sappy, and misses part of the point. I think that is the worst change I have heard about in the new translation. I hate to imagine seeing the look on John's face if he comes to liturgy with me and hears that!

And I am a newcomer who will greatly miss the Slavonic. No, I don't know it, but with the transliterations right on the other side of the book, not only could I look over to see what they were singing, but it wasn't that hard to say it myself. Without even half trying, in a year I have learned maybe 30 Slavonic words. All men by nature desire to know, says Aristotle. Why should I mind a chance to learn a bit of a language? And it means so much to some people. In my parish the people always sing much louder, and more of them sing, when parts are done in Slavonic. If they grew up with it and this is the language of the liturgy which is written by repetition into their souls, they should never be deprived of it-that's my opinion. To facilitate that, it should be in the books in the pews.

Susan Peterson

"And I am a newcomer who will greatly miss the Slavonic. No, I don't know it, but with the transliterations right on the other side of the book, not only could I look over to see what they were singing, but it wasn't that hard to say it myself. Without even half trying, in a year I have learned maybe 30 Slavonic words. All men by nature desire to know, says Aristotle. Why should I mind a chance to learn a bit of a language? And it means so much to some people. In my parish the people always sing much louder, and more of them sing, when parts are done in Slavonic. If they grew up with it and this is the language of the liturgy which is written by repetition into their souls, they should never be deprived of it-that's my opinion. To facilitate that, it should be in the books in the pews."


Susan, You're a gem!!! MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!!!

I must admit that I am saddened by the decision of the Ruthenian hierarchs to impose this new liturgy upon the Church, but -- on the bright side -- their action means that I will no longer have to drive 90 minutes in order to attend divine liturgy on Sundays, because now I can simply attend the divine liturgy by taking a ten minute walk to the OCA parish near my house.

the bleeding continues...

Although the ACROD church is a split from the Byzantine Ruthenian my comments were more aimed at Patriarchal Chruches. I should have clarified this point.

As far as I know, the BCC is under the Metropolitan and the Metropolitan under the Pope. How does ACROD function? It seems that i do not have an understanding of the relation of the two.

ACROD is under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Father Deacon,

How would you say that that affects the way ACROD fucntions?

Stephanie


I have not heard anything to that effect. I seriously doubt it would happen for a few different reasons.


The pew book credits the following as sources:

"The Divine Liturgy" Levkulic, Byzantine Seminary Press, 1978

"Ambon Prayers" Rev. David M. Petras

Alkiviadis Calivas. �An Introduction to the Divine Liturgy.� In The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom. Holy Cross Orthodox Press: Brookline, MA. 1986.

I can't remember if the pew book prints the Slavonic we use alongside the English, but I don't think it does. I usually just use the handouts and my prayer book. We just have soft cover books printed by the diocese for use in the special services like the one we used last night for the forefeast of Theophany. Those have the English and Slavonic (in Latin letters) in them.

Laka Ya Rabb


My impression is more or less independently of the Patriarchate. Metropolitan Nicholas is titular Metropolitan of Amissos, but he doesn't sit on the Holy Synod of Constantinople. I believe we are what might be termed under the "spiritual care" of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America, and our ruling hierarch is enthroned by the Archbishop of the GOA.

The diocese has a sobor that meets every three years.

I am posting a copy of the letter sent out by His Grace, Bishop John of Parma to the clergy of his Eparchy concerning the promulgation. This letter was forwarded to me tonight with the request that it be posted. The contents of the letter are more explicit in direction than the one sent out by His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Basil of Pittsburgh.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+