www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Disappointed with EWTN's Journey Home last night

Dear Friends,

Did any one of you see the Journey Home last night, with a Russian woman named Tatyana as guest?

I was very disappointed with it. I hate saying that, because the guest herself was delightful, and she did have a wonderful conversion story to the Church.

However, I was profoundly disappointed by a few things:

1) She had been Russian Orthodox, but there was no mention or questions about the Byzantine Church. She is canonically Byzantine when she joins the church. She married a Catholic, whom I assume (but don't know for sure), was Latin Rite. I can understand if she goes to Latin Church, for perhaps her husband is Latin rite, or there are no Greek Rite parishes in her area. I was still disappointed the subject of our Greek Rite did not come up.
2) Marcus Grodi the host, and none of the questioners asked her if she knew of the Byzantine Rite.
3) Also she mentioned she was confirmed. She had to work to use correct English, so perhaps, she used the wrong terminology. But she should not have been confirmed upon entering the Catholic Church, for the Orthodox sacraments are valid. And if her parish confirmed her, that was wrong! They should not have.

Marcus Grodi is typically sensitive to the Eastern Rite churches, but I was very disappointed that there was no mention of the Greek rite on his show last night, considering the convert was a Russian Orthodox.

One of my treasured videos is Fr. Terry Kraychuck's conversion story on the journey home. Fr. Terry is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Hiermonk in Canada, and has a very wonderful testimony.

I believe forum participant Deacon Lance has also been on the Journey Home.

Just a quick note: According to RC Canon Law, when a woman marries, she becomes the rite of her husband. So, an Orthodox woman who marries a Latin rite man automatically becomes Latin Rite and the children are automatically Latin rite, so they can choose to return to their mother's rite when they are older.

Joe

That is correct, a fully initiated Orthodox Christian entering into full communion with the Catholic Church should do so by profession of faith only.

Typically, this person would probably want to receive the sacrament of reconciliation shortly before the profession of faith, but this is needed, well, only if it is needed.

Shalom,
Memo

I did not know the fact that Joe brought up, the fact that a woman automatically joins her husband's rite.

Still I wish they could have said more about the Eastern Rites and Churches. Western Christians need to appreciate the Eastern Churches. Everything this woman had in the Orthodox Church is authentically Catholic.

After all, it is not just that the Orthodox holy orders and sacraments are valid and that the Orthodox are considered "true churches." It is also the case the we celebrate the same liturgy, use the same prayers and devotions in the Eastern Rite as our brethren do in the Orthodox.

When someone comes to my Church, the only thing that should be different than in the Orthodox Liturgies is that we mention the Pope of Rome in our litanies. TO the extent that is true, we are faithful in our vocation as Byzantine Catholics. To the extent that is not true, we have a ways to go yet.

Lance,

Was this a parish in the United States where she entered? I fear that many RCIA directors and parish staff are ignorant (through no fault of their own) of eastern churches and what Canon Law has to say about these things.

Joe

Lance,

"I believe forum participant Deacon Lance has also been on the Journey Home."

Sorry, must have been another deacon. I am a life long, unfallen away Catholic and wouldn't qualify.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Joe,

According CCEO a woman may transfer to the sui iuris Church of her husband upon marriage but is not required to do so. Children may belong to either sui iuris Church upon agreement of the parents. Only upon disagreement does it default to the husband's Church.

Canon 29

1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the
Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only
the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the
Apostolic See.

2. If the child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year is: (1) born of an unwed mother, he is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the mother belongs; (2) born of unknown parents, he is to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of those in whose care he has been legitimately committed are enrolled; if it is a case of an adoptive father and mother, 1 should be applied; (3) born of non-baptized parents, the child is to be a member of the Church sui iuris of the one who is responsible for his education in the Catholic faith.


Canon 33

A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at
the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has
ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Father Deacon,

Hasn't Pat Madrid been on the Journey Home? I thought that he never left the Church.

Dr. Eric

Ah, Father Deacon, thanks for the correction. I wonder if the situation is the same for a latin rite Catholic who marries an eastern rite Catholic? My wife was latin rite and I was Melkite. It was my understanding that she automatically transfered to my rite. In fact, we would have had to get special permission to be married according to the latin rite.

Joe

Joe,

The CIC does not address this issue so the CCEO is the governing canon for both Latin and Eastern Churches.

As to your situation, if you married before 1990 and the promulgation of the CCEO I think what you state would have been true, if it was after you were simply misinformed.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Any thought about writing to Marcus Grodi? I have found that oftentimes even though a Latin Catholic has knowledge of the East, it is not "on the front burner" of their mind so to speak. Does this make any sense? I think Grodi's predominant ministry is to Protestants becoming Catholic.

Yes, Coming Home Network International's main thrust is to assist Protestant clergy (Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc.) in their conversion process into the Catholic Church. Marcus Grodi said in one episode that his group has helped more than 600 such clergy come home (or in the process of coming home) to the Catholic Church.

There are Protestant laity in the mix and non-Christian converts from Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam.

James Likoudis was featured in one episode but he was not under the program of CHNI as he converted a long time ago before the birth of CHNI.

After the Tatyana episode aired last Monday, April 16, there is another convert from Orthodoxy who will be featured live on "Journey Home" on Monday, April 30, Deacon Joseph Pasquella.

Also, there are non-converts (like Karl Keating) who are featured guests, especially on open line Mondays (used to be open line Fridays.)

If Byzantine Catholics (and Orthodox) have concerns, it would be an oppurtune time to phone in or e-mail your question(s) or comment(s) on April 30. Based on past episodes, Marcus Grodi and the program staffers love to take questions.

BTW, you should listen (again) to Tatyana's testimony aired last Monday before making hasty judgment:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio...=-6892289&NewLis%20t=&T1=journey

Anna & Amadeus, thanks for the suggestion that we write Grodi. I am sure he will receive well the comments he receives from us. My impression of Marcus Grodi is that he is supportive of our Eastern Churches.

James Loukidis, in my view, is not very respectful to the Orthodox. I realize he converted to Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

I guess I live in a dream world. I am committed to unity with the Holy Father. But I feel like the Orthodox Churches are true Churches and the Petrine ministry is the only thing that separates us.

I am often just as protective of my Orthodox brothers and sisters when talking to my fellow Catholics as I am of our Byzantine Churches in union with Rome.

Dear Friends,

It seems that the impression that show created, at least to me, is that Orthodox Christians really need to convert to the only "True Church."

Is not the Orthodox Church the "True Church" as well in accordance to contemporary Catholic ecclesiological praxis?

Is it not an OUTRAGE for this channel to portray the Eastern Orthodox as an "outside" religion like Protestantism, Mormonism etc.?

Alex

I also just by chance saw this interview and my impression was that this lady was orginally converted to Orthodoxy without any firm basis or education in the faith and thus fell prey easily to the Mormons. Her views on the Mormons are also interesting but somewhat naive. What gets my attention is that she said she couldn't find any orthodox churches. Where did she look? In the "yellow pages"? Other Russsians?

IS OUTRAGE!

lance, that is VERY much appreciated by the Orthodox on this board. You truly reflect the Spirit of 'Orientale Lumen"

Alex, as a Catholic, I agree- the Orthodox are true churches, and should not from a Catholic point of view, be looked upon as being outside the True Church.

One thing to remember about this guest is she converted from Mormomism to Catholcism this might have thrown a monkeywrench in the whole situation. Also it is quite probable their were no Russian Orthodox churchs in her area. Let's say they are Armenian Syrian Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox Churchs in her area its not like these churchs are anything close to being Russian Orthodox the are very different spiritualties even though they are Orthodox in some way and many times the intercommunion of these churchs are irregular or nonexistant the so called unity of Orthodoxy is actual quite different in reality Russian Orthodoxy consider themselves more Orthodox than Greeks or Copts etc in practice if not official dogma. Thus if she found other Orthodox churchs in her area that were not Russian she might have easily dismissed them. Also consider the Russian Orthodoxy she knew of was the repressed church under the Soviets I am sure the situation is much improved now so yeah I would agree here view of Orthodoxy is not representative of the situation in the Russia now or is the case in the freedom found in the USA but yeah is some regions it can be hard to find a specfic Russian Orthodox church. Also the Russian Rite in the Catholic Church has virtually dissapeared not only in Russia but in the Catholic Church her best option for her in that regard was be the Ukrainian Catholic Church but since her husband was apparently an RC that might have decided the issue for her. Also in many parts of the USA the Ukrainina Catholic Church has a very week presence and some of the middle eastern catholic rites can be very ethnocentric, so I don't think she would be comfortable there, sorry guys been my experience.
So in short I don't think Russian Orthodoxy got a fair shake on the show but I think we might be to judgemental here as to why she never checked out an Eastern Rite Catholic Church which can be hard to find or virtually unknown in some parts of the USA also her husband seemed to be devout Latin Rite RC and maybe according to canon law that decided it andyways she seems to have to found a home there and its not our spiritual life to please its hers. You guys can apply to the JOurney Home and tell your own story I guess.

Tobit, I would not say we are being judgmental- but somewhat disappointed.

It is true that all the churces in the Catholic Communion are equal in dignity.

But out of vast majority of the billion member world wide Catholic communion, the vast majority are in the Latin Church.

There comparatively only a few million of all of the rest of us in the 20-21 Eastern Churches.

By bringing up an issue like this, we are in obedience to our vocation John Paul II laid out for us in Orientale Lumen, to make our authentic traditions known in the broader church.

Well I wouldn't lay the blame at the convert who might not be aware of the eastern church after all a big part of her conversion was here RC husband and a lot of Latins in the West are just unaware not because of prejudice but ignorance.

However Marcus Grodi as a host on a catholic religious network whould be more aware of the sensitivities of the eastern part of the church and inquired a bit more. If nothing more than to make the guest aware of an equal in dignity presence the Eastern Rites have to offer other potential converts and for just plain moment to educate christians.

Tobit, well said. And again, it is not so much about "blame" no one did anyting wrong, I just wish that the show had made the connection between the guest's Orthodox/Eastern Heritage and Catholicism.

When I married my husband who is Byzantine I still retained my Roman Rite but my children were automatically Byzantine per Canon Law. All of that is conferred through the Father's Lineage (as he is the head of the household). The whole Father bequeths his heritage to the son or child thing. I have a RC Franciscan priest who recently did an entire discussion on this topic for a group of woman. It seems that today with our backwards understandings of gender that we don't understand the significance of lineage.

Holly

I guess we did a big OOOPs then. We got married in the Latin Rite because there were no Byzantine Churches in Southern OH within in a decent distance. It was quite some time before we attended the Byzantine Rite on a regular basis. But at the time it was very clearly explained to us by the RC priest who married us that I had not switched rites unless I filled out the paperwork and that the kids must be baptized Byzantine. My priest new the Canon Law because he read it to us. So some RC priests are correctly informed.

Holly

Holly,

I am not a canon lawyer, so for all I know the canon I was referring to might not be really enforced that seriously. Or, perhaps, they have done away with it. I wouldn't worry about it.

Joe

Actually, the canon in question (112, section 2) says that a spouse may transfer to the Ritual Church sui juris of the other spouse during the marriage. But it must be so declared. It is certainly not automatic. And in fact, the spouse who transferred may freely return when the marriage has ended.

REMINDER:

Deacon Joseph Pasquella, a convert from Holy Orthodoxy, will be the guest on Journey Home today Monday, April 30.

I hope he is fair and doesn't go into polemics.


O Holy Spirit our Lord and God, infuse in Father Deacon your Wisdom to speak appropriately and enlighten the world with the Light of the East. Give him the Grace necessary to educate without derision, enlighten without polemic, and illustrate without division. All Glory be to you O Lord!

Michel,

Can this be viewed on the web? I have to work tonight, so I won't be able to watch t.v.

Joe

Joe,

I think most shows on EWTN can be viewed after their initial broadcast.

Here is the link to the show.

http://www.ewtn.com/journeyhome/index.asp

Thanks Michael for the reminder!

Gordo

Yes, "the Journey Home" program on EWTN is simulcast live on TV, Radio, and on the Internet worldwide!

After each show, it is archived and can be accessed in audio format only through the CHNI website of Marcus Grodi.

The video version goes on sale, unless it was included in the "for free" re-viewing portion of the program.

Okay,

Thanks Gordo.

Thanks Amado.

Joe,

A few of the replay times are listed on the site.

I saw it. Did anyone else?

Gordo

Wish there was a way to contact Joy Pinto, I'm on this journey myself, during much of her testimony, I was in tears!

Sorry - who is Joy Pinto?

Gordo

What did y'all think of tonight's episode of The Journey Home?

The guest was a Deacon convert from Orthodoxy.

Yes, I'm curious as to people's opinions. The real audio is not available yet. Do they wait a day or so before putting it up?

Joe

Regarding Jim and Joy Pinto
http://www.sanctityoflifeministries.org/

Thank you so much!!!!!!!

I found Fr. Decon's comments to be in line with what one would expect - his reception into the Catholic Church was very much in line with a Catholic view of the papacy. Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is - or was what it was.

I know some on this forum may have issues with the lack of detailed discussion of the (Eastern) Greek Catholic Churches, but 50 minutes of live TV avails only so many opportunities.

For the most part, I feel he was fair about presenting his argument in such a fashion that did not denegrate the Orthodox. Given who the core audience of the Journey Home are, - seekers, converts, and reverts like myself - his comments seemed about par for the course. He came to believe and accept Catholic thinking on the Papacy, and went from there.

In all fairness, 50 minutes on live TV with questions emailed in to be answered extemporaenously, may not be the single best or easiest place to explain your spiritual journey.

I would agree with your comments here, Simple Sinner. It was funny, but having been a member here on this forum for years now, I have been a little spoiled reading wonderful, well thought out, edited (sometimes voluntarily, other times not! ) comments about people's spiritual journeys. I think Father Deacon Joseph came across as just a sincere guy who had spent some time seeking the truth and Christian unity which lead him through a variety of paths - ultimately to Orthodoxy and then finally to the Catholicism of his baptism. There were some gaps in his presentation (gaps Marcus tried to fill, I think) but I agree that he had both a very balanced approach to Orthodoxy and what he saw as the need for unity with and through the Bishop of Rome. Very clearly the book Jesus, Peter and the Keys [amazon.com] had a decisive influence on him. (Interestingly enough, another Orthodox clergyman and Church historian, Fr. Chrysostom Frank, wrote some very favorable comments on this book (they are pulished with the text)before himself entering communion with Rome. He now is a priest in the ARchdiocese of Denver and is pastor of a dual-rite (Russian and Latin) parish.

Father Deacon Joseph also introduced people to the Jesus Prayer, which was marvellous!

Gordo

I was very pleased with Deacon Pasquella's presentation last night on Journey Home. You have to start with the fact that canonically he is Roman Catholic through baptism and simply found his way back to his true home,. albeit in a roundabout way. I was in no way offended as an Eastern Catholic at anything on the program. I think it was wonderful that he cultivated an Eastern Orthodox faith and can bring those treasures to the West. I was also pleased with Marcus Grodi's well balanced and insightful comments. Overall I think it was very good.

Well my question when it began was why Rome? However, he quickly stated he was Baptised in the Roman Church and received Confirmation there also, and was advised that was the best route to return. As to enter the Eastern Catholic Church would be more involved, where as with Rome only some direction and Confession was needed. It made sence!

Dear Gordo:

Joy Pinto, an Episcopalian married to an Episcopalian priest, was the guest last Monday, April 23rd, before Deacon Joseph Pasquella (yesterday, April 30th). Both the Pintos came into the Catholic Church together.

I think there is a lag time (of about 1 to 2 years?) in the scheduling of guests because there are so many on the list waiting to face the camera, and the music, on "The Journey Home!"

It takes a few days or a week, utmost, for an episode to be archived and made available in audio format at the CHNI website hosted by Marcus Grodi. Joy Pinto's is the 425th archived episode (although her episode is listed #1, being the newest) on "the Journey Home" since Mother Angelica requested Marcus Grodi to air the first episode on September 5, 1997 featuring Dr. Thomas Howard.

The program features mostly converts, some reverts, and a few cradles.

While I thought he did a nice job I don't think anyone will convert to the Catholic Church because of it.(No disrespect intended)As a convert to the Catholic Church I of course agree with him for returning to the Chair of Peter. That being said this wouldn't have swayed me either way. The only thing that would have made me think is when he brought up birth control.

On another note... while I respect his choice to return to the Latin Church I would have done anything to have stayed with the eastern liturgy.(Again no disrespect intended)

For those steeped into apologetics, next Monday's, May 7th, Journey Home should be another interesting (and intriguing!) episode.

Being the first Monday in the month of May, it will be "Open Line Monday," i.e., any and all questions by phone or by e-mail will be answered by the host Marcus Grodi and/or by his featured guest.

At the receiving end will be Patty Bonds, who aired her testimony on "The Journey Home" a while back. If you have not heard about her, she is the sister of the famous (or infamous) Protestant apologist/polemicist James White!

Deacon Joseph is a affiliate member of the Confraternity of Penitents, which I also belong to, some of his work can be seen at; http://www.penitents.org/dcnpas.htm

Please be charitable when commenting...

james

Dear Jakub,

An excellent confraternity with a very inspiring Rule and way of life!

I love your focus on the Cross of San Damiano!

Alex

Alex,

I wear many hats, some say it's due to the sparse findings on my head , but I like to use and draw from the many resources made available to us...

james

James,

Did you feel any of the comments above were uncharitable?

I found out about your group last night. It was interesting. I am a professed SFO, ut have always been drawn to a slightly modernized 1221 rule.

God bless,

gordo

Gordo,

The charitable comment was in reference to "after reading" from the link...did not see anything offensive in the previous postings...

Don't like those range wars...


james

Dear Jakub,

When I visited Nice in France, they had seven special chapels dedicated to various penitential Orders (the names of which I've forgotten).

Each had their special habit, Rule etc. and each chapel was beautifully decorated inside in the Baroque style. Sadly, they were only open to the public on specific days of the week.

Good for you!

Alex

So...does your confraternity wear a specific "habit" like the Tau cross or a garment? Do you have regular gatherings or spiritual conferences?

Probably the best work I ave read on the penitential movement is this text:

http://www.amazon.com/St-Francis-Th...mp;s=books&qid=1178048861&sr=8-1

Well worth getting...I started a Franciscan Roots and Fruits Group with my fraternity and we studied this text. It was extremely insightful!

Gordo, sfo

I skimmed the updated rule at http://www.penitents.org/statutesref.html#CHAPTER_I:_DAILY_LIFE

It looks quite good ! God be praised for finding such a group !

-- John

I can recall a few years ago a group calling themselves the "Orthodox Franciscan Penitents" had a marvellous site which blended Franciscanism and Byzantine spirituality. It even had listed specific rites associated with progression in hesychast spirituality.

The website is no longer running. I've always been curious what happened to it.

Gordo

Great news! I have the material from that site that I copied and pasted into a word doc. The site was around back about 5 years ago, but no longer exists. I will create a separate thread this evening and post a few items for your enjoyment...

Gordo

An Eastern Orthodox Deacon�s �Journey Home� to Catholicism on EWTN

1 May 2007

This transmission was shown here in Ireland tonight; it was seen in North America last night (the rebroadcast here was necessary, since few viewers would be apt to be awake to watch the program at 2 AM Greenwich time).

Immediately, the knowledgeable viewer would have been startled, and unhappy, that this deacon was wearing a business suit and necktie � with a full Orthodox priest�s cross! Any deacon ordained to that rank, as this deacon seems to have been, in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, can be expected to know better than to usurp the insignia of a higher order.

At the end of the program, the knowledgeable viewer would have been startled again, when the deacon gave a blessing with his right hand in the manner of an Orthodox priest. This he has no right or authority to do.

Between these two �bookends�, as it were, a great many other problems appeared. The deacon had been originally a Roman Catholic, then a Pentecostalist (at the age of 11), then associated with some sort of Evangelical group calling itself �The Way�, then became involved with Eastern Orthodoxy, and now is once again a Roman Catholic. In itself, this calls into question the wisdom of having such matters broadcast to the public. Any man�s personal spiritual odyssey is, one hopes, a deeply intimate and personal matter. In addition, a convert is not some sort of human trophy to be waved around triumphantly.

But back to the deacon. His attempts to address the issues between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were not successful, and showed a good deal of confusion which will do no good to anyone. Those who know these matters will be annoyed, and with good reason; those who do not know these matters are not apt to form a high opinion of Eastern Orthodox teaching and practice.

To complicate matters still further, Marcus Grodi, who is the host of the program, and who normally speaks with converts to Catholicism from Protestantism, was not sufficiently prepared for a serious discussion of Eastern Orthodoxy. This became only too apparent several times, but perhaps the strangest was Mr. Grodi�s assertion that he was very impressed with the special wording of the liturgical commemorations of the Pope of Rome used by the Eastern Orthodox during the First Millennium. Unfortunately he offered no examples and no references. This is hardly surprising, since there were no such commemorations at the time. Even today, it is not difficult to find Greek-Catholic (Melkite) hierarchs, priests and deacons who do not make any liturgical commemoration of the Pope: the deacon and priest commemorate the bishop, who commemorates the Patriarch, who commemorates the Pope. One wonders what Mr. Grodi would make of that.

In response to a question about Eastern Orthodox veneration of the Holy Mother of God, the deacon asserted that Orthodoxy denies the Immaculate Conception and instead teaches that the Virgin Mary was purified from original sin at the Annunciation! Relatively rarely, one can hear such a theory suggested, but it is certainly not a dogma of Eastern Orthodoxy and never has been.
Instead of serving in one or another of the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions, the deacon is serving in the Roman Catholic diocese of Buffalo. This is probably just as well, so far as we are concerned. If he appeared in our Churches speaking as he does, severe embarrassment could result.

Meanwhile, though, EWTN has given its viewers a seriously distorted idea of Eastern Orthodoxy, which becomes yet another barrier to genuine efforts aimed at healing the schism. Would it be too much to ask that EWTN would invite qualified Eastern Orthodox, Greek-Catholic and Roman Catholic theologians to discuss these matters in a scholarly and dispassionate way? If EWTN feels unable to do that, then it would be best for EWTN to avoid the topic altogether.

Fr. Serge

Blahoslovy!

There aren't too many converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism around are there?

Of course, we have a convert here on the Forum who also happens to be a priest (I'll keep him anonymous, but he can jump in if he wants to) . But I have only heard of one other priest besideds him who has converted, Fr. Chrysostom who lives in Denver. I also have seen Fr. Deacon David Hess on The Journey Home as well, I thought he did a good job but that was when I was kinda new to the whole apologetics thing.

I think that this point makes it hard to find good examples to put on TV. That and the numbers of Protestants who convert dwarf any and all conversions from Orthodoxy.

Maybe EWTN could get these fine priests to go on Marcus' Show.

Father Serge,

Bless, Master!

Speaking personally, I watched over the internet with a 300kb connection. The picture was very blurry, so I did not see how he was dressed. In fact I rarely watched, but listened when my wife and children were not interrupting me!

Certainly he should have been wearing his clerical attire. This is a strange phenomenon among Latin deacons - almost a silent, social pressure not to appear as clerics. But then...



I did hear the blessing at the end. This is a development in the Latin Church I profoundly dislike. It is the sacerdotalizing (if such a word exists) of the diaconate, turning them into presiders and "priests, second-class". The blessing should be reserved to the priest and bishop, but the Latins permit it so I simply chalked it up to the Latins. (I did not see his hand, however...)



In his defense, though, his Catholic formation as a child was sparse and certainly not supported in the home. After he was sufficiently "sacramentalized, but not evangelized" as a Catholic, his mother demanded that he attend a Pentecostal church. His odyssey through "The Way" was a bit strange, but he was searching. The fact that he found a depth of apostolic tradition in Orthodoxy and then the unity of Catholicism seems to me to follow a somewhat logical progression as his faith developed.

As to any triumphalism, there may have been some, but by and large I thought it was extremely toned down on Marcus' part. Certainly Father Deacon Joseph did not demonstrate any.



Here I definitely share your frustration. Father Deacon Joseph's presentation lacked the clarity and precision that I appreciate in speakers, particularly when addressing issues of East and West. I did find him to be a sincere man, not extremely articulate in matters theological, but nonetheless sincere. I was also bothered by some of the apologetic points Marcus was trying to drive home, despite the fact that it was tempered by faint praise for certain things within Orthodoxy. I was delighted by the discussion on the Jesus prayer. My journey started with the discovery of this prayer - I could say that the prayer found me! perhaps others will start that way as well...



I once ran across a text that was published in the early part of the 20th century at a seminary library. (Unfortunately I can neither remember the title nor the author's name.) The author was making the argument that early texts in the Divine Liturgy seemed to give evidence of a strong emphasis on the Petrine ministry. I have no clue how well this was argued or anything else. When I heard Marcus make reference to that, I wondered if he might be thinking of that same text. Who knows - not important. My sense is, though, that he was trying to bring in more specifics...the ones that Father Deacon Joseph did not seem to be providing.



I have actually run across this theory several times over the past few years, and have also seen it argued here on this forum. I have never seen it posited as official dogma, but I have seen it presented, fairly or unfairly, as a fair summary of the patristic witness on Mary and an Orthodox doctrine. Your point, though, is that the average Joe and Jane Six-Pack Roman Catholic will walk away with the impression that "Hey, you know what those Orthodox believe?" I think that yours is a fair critique.



I believe the reason why had to do with going with the rite of his baptism.



I think that you offer a very fair point here, Father. I was just listening to it from the perspective of a personal journey. But this was in fact an opportunity to witness to our shared tradition, and it was less than satisfactory. What was also suprising to me was the fact that he studied at the St. Stephen's program through the Antiochian House of Studies. For those of us who are student's there, we know the rigorous reading that is required!

In ICXC,

Gordo

I found the good Deacon to be less than eloquent about his time in Orthodoxy. Perhaps he simply is not a very good speaker or a very good interview.

Certainly, Mr. Grodi is more adept at discussing things from a point of view of Protestantism vs. Rome, rather than the relationship of Constantinople compared to Rome.

I suspected that the subject of a convert from Orthodoxy to Rome would be more than sufficient to annoy some on this board, as here it is usually the opposite.

EWTN does many things very well. It has played a major role in my wife's "conversion" from a lukewarm Catholic to one who is filled with the Holy Spirit.

We all know they have not done a terrific job in presenting the Christian East. I believe that gently letting them know about it would be the first step in resolving this.

To be sure, EWTN has been a blessing to the Catholic world. God grant them many years!

I would only add that I find it problematic to refer to anyone who moves from Orthodox to Catholic or from Catholic to Orthodox as a "convert".

Gordo

RE: Conversion

Let me say that I could not agree more! In my case, I have not converted to Catholicism but entered into Communion with the Pope of Rome and the Western Church while remaining as Orthodox (in theology and spirituality) as I was before.

Father Bless!

When are you going on The Journey Home?

Dr. Eric

(It actually wouldn't be a bad idea.)

However respectful and grateful the deacon is of his past, I think it can�t be avoided that this is effectively a tool to proselytize Orthodox faithful, just as the reverse would be true if the circumstances were the other way around. That is the whole purpose of the CHN, it�s there to convert people. It�s primary purpose is not for the edification of people who are already Catholic. The fact that he talked about the �errors� present in Orthodoxy simply gives light to this intent.

I should say I have no issue with his decision if he felt that is what he felt he needed to do. His situation however is obviously being used to try and �convert� people who are Orthodox. Just as the show intends to seek converts among the various Protestant bodies or others who are not Catholic.

Andrew,

You raise a very good point. If the intent of the program and the CHN is to "convert" others - CHristians and non-CHristians - to Catholicism, how else should the fact that a former Orthodox clergyman appears on the program be interpreted?

And how does that square with official Vatican policy and teaching?

Boy - between your post and Father Serge's I feel like I completely misread this whole thing. I read it primarily as a personal story for Catholics, but I failed to see how it might be interpreted by others.

That being said, I have also read and heard my share of anti-Catholic "convert" testimonies and material from the Orthodox side. To me, it is a fundamentally different issue with Protestants since they are not members of an apostolic church. But between Catholics and Orthodox, the readings I have made of official Vatican policies indicate that we should be engaging at the grass roots level in a shared apostolate, not actively trying to steal sheep (matters of personal conscience aside).

Something more to chew on...

Gordo

Without having made any attempt to look for Orthodox priests now serving in communion with Rome, I'm aware of several in the USA. But that's a bagatelle. In Eastern Europe at the moment there are over 500 such priests!

Fr. Serge

Dear Gordo,

Many thanks for your thoughtful and well-taken comments in resposne to my post.

It is true, of course, that one sometimes finds the Orthodox engaging in triumphalism over Catholics who join them - but that's no reason to reply in kind! It is not difficult to make someone welcome, offering our congratulations and prayers, without turning him into An Incident.

However, it would be seriously interesting to investigate the phenomenon of the large number of priests, almost all of whom were educated in Orthodox seminaries, who voluntarily became Greek-Catholics at the time of the collapse of Communism in 1989 and thereafter. A movement of such size becomes a matter of legitimate interest and inquiry.

Just as an example, one such priest and his wife were visiting at the Greek-Catholic Exarchate in Athens a year or so later. Over the dinner table, the cathedral deacon asked the priest "do you believe that it is possible to attain eternal salvation in the Orthodox Church". Without hesitation, the priest replied "of course". The deacon then asked "then why did you become Greek-Catholic?" The priest responded that he and his wife both came from families which were entirely Greek-Catholic and that they had always remained Greek-Catholic by conviction and loyalty, and had been compelled to function within the Moscow Patriarchate by external forces far beyond their control. By returning openly to where their faith and their hearts had always been, they did not intend to deny the soteriological reality of Eastern Orthodoxy.

That visit to Athens was a great joy.

Fr. Serge

I am sorry I just cannot agree.

As a Byzantine Catholic deeply enamored with my brothers and sisters with whom I share patrimony I have a fondness and feel a closeness for them and with them.

As a Byzantine Catholic I have stuggled with Latins and EO parties in coming to an understanding for WHY my parish exists. For why the sui juiris church to whiuch I look for spiritual succor exists AT ALL. To the Romans I explain our Eastern patrimony, to the Orthodox I explain my abiding faith in the Petrine ministry. To some of the more strident Latins, I have had to explain that there is more to Catholism than the Latin rite.

I can't help but think that the program was STILL done for the benifit of American Evangelicals far more than it was done for Orthodox.

What do I mean by that? Well as Orthodoxy has broken onto the "American Scene" in the past several decades in the sense of being a known quantity among non-Orthodox... (heck even among non-Catholics [granting the Catholic faithful were frequently more likely to have some working knowledge that Orthodox even existed!]) Well the call of Orthodoxy has been a siren song.

A siren song that is not totally without leaving baggage aside.

In the interest of charity and ecumenical dialouge, a good deal of the anti-papal polemics have been met with silence. Is this a bad thing? Perhaps not totally, but at what point do we respond?

The efforts of Orthodox parties in apologetics have been strident and fruitful in America. I have no wish to return to days past where a constant and uncharitable polemics-war is fought between CC and OC parties. The Holy Fathers JP2 & B16 have been clear and vocal about a need for detante, dialogue and understanding.

Would that all parties involved were so willing to be conciliatory.

On some other Catholic forums in which I participate EO parties have been vocal in their displesaure and disagreement with with Roman sentiments.

I truly believe that TJH really was not focused on proselitizing the Orthodox, so much as providing some equal time and answer to the unending claims made by some vocal parties.

Does anyone else think that this TJH program was a tour de force of polemics against the EO? I believe it was definately measured and restrained. Perhaps not to the point some wish, but as a Greek Catholic, I am used to not having all parties behave or act according to my script.

A small clarification - mention of the deacon's passing through what appear to be several varieties of Protestantism before becoming Eastern Orthodox was not intended as a criticism of the deacon himself - many people, especially in the USA where there is such a dazzling abundance of competing religions, are apt to try several versions - and still less was I passing judgement on the deacon's spiritual state. My point was that attempting to deal with Pentecostalism, Evangelical Protestantism, "The Way", and Eastern Orthodoxy, all in one 50-minute program, was at best overambitious and bound to cause confusion.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge,

I agree. I'm not sure if Father Deacon Joseph has ever given his testimony as a formal presentation, but this interview format seemed to focus too much on the beginning on his journey prior to Orthodoxy and not enough on the reasons he converted (other than the Greek) and then his reasons for eventually entering communion with Rome.

Of course, having been interviewed once for TV myself, it is not always easy to be as focused as one would be while standing (my preferred mode of presentation as a trainer) plus you are very dependent on the quality and line of questions provided by the interviewer.

God bless!

Gordo

Jut curious, but was this deacon one of the "Ben Lomand" group?

I don't know. The deacon did mention, almost in passing, the Evangelical Orthodox and their entry into the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese, but he seemed confused about the dates in this process.

Fr. Serge

Gordon


I think it fundamentally brings up the point if it's appropriate to target baptized Christians for "conversion".


It seems to me there is a variation in what is said and what is practiced. I also thought it was interesting that it was said - to paraphrase - the Eastern Catholic churches could be a model of reunion. Does that line up with official policy? My impression was it didn't.


The whole point of the show is bringing those outside the church back to their "home", i.e. the Catholic Church.


The Orthodox in this country do very little evangelization (i.e. targetting those who are not Christians). What they do mostly is proselytism (i.e. targetting people who are already Christian for conversion).

A simple sinner


To convince them to convert to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy. I could see that. Even if you believe that, it still would remain that the secondary purpose is to seek the conversion of Orthodox Christians.


The show isn't a response to Orthodox claims though, or a forum where Catholics and Orthodox could describe their respective positions. It's a show about bringing people home. It's about converting people.

Responding to anti-Catholic polemics is another matter. In the case of the really weird kind, it is sometimes best to pay no attention (one of my favorites of that genre was the accusation against Governer Al Smith of New York that he was supporting the project for the Holland Tunnel so as to be able to bring the Pope from Europe via this tunnel! - for those who are unfamiliar with access routes into and out of New York City, the Holland Tunnel goes from Manhattan to New Jersey).

But when anti-Catholic polemics become more serious, or at least more credible, then it is time for a measured response. Such a response is best given by a public or semi-public scholarly encounter between qualified people on both sides of the topic (whatever the topic may be).

I could give examples, but that would not make for edifying reading.

Another possibility exists in places where Catholics are being targetted by this, that, or the other anti-Catholic group (when I was living in Toronto in the nineteen-eighties, somebody was flooding the place with Jack Chick's anti-Catholic propaganda). When that occurs, it becomes necessary to alert the faithful and provide whatever specific information is needed.

Fr. Serge

With these observations of Easterners on the ambivalent treatment of Orthodoxy in the episodes featuring 3 Orthodox converts thus far, I think we should start a call-in or e-mail campaign requesting Marcus Grodi and his staff to set aside one "Open-Line Monday" guesting back James Likoudis, Fr. Dcn. David Hess, and Fr. Dcn. Joseph Pasquella. I think it takes from 1 to 2 years to get a slot in the weekly broadcast.

Included in this panel should be Fr. Mitch Pacwa and/or Fr. Thomas Loya and other priests connected with EWTN and who are knowledgeable about the Eastern Churches.

Marcus Grodi has done this for the Anglicans, Presbyterians and the Baptists.

Amado,

I agree with the suggestion of Fr. Loya, but Fr. Mitch Pacwa is bi-ritual, in his encounters interviewing both the Maronite Patriarch and the Apostolic Visitator for the North American Malankarese, he has been less than helpful toward Eastern Churches. He has been more of an apologist for the Latin Rite, while leading the interviewee to answer in a way that would not emphasis the Eastern Tradition. Instead of asking questions such as 'why are Eastern priests not ordained in N. America', he suggests that celibacy is better. Instead of asking if the Malankarese are working of removing latinizations and westernizations he suggests that these are the norm.

By the way, for those who missed to watch or listen to the worldwide broadcast by EWTN TV/Radio/Internet of Rev. Dcn. Joseph Pasquella's conversion story on "The Journey Home," it is now available in audio at:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/...0t=&T1=journey

Being the newest archived episode, it's #1 on the list. If the "Listen Now" button does not function, click on the "Download" button instead.

This should provide a common reference point in the on-going discussions.

EWTN does evidently have an "Eastern" program (or at least at one time they had it). Part of what we seem to be asking is not for some compartmentalized approach to the East but rather that all programs would, in the spirit of Orientale Lumen, breathe with both lungs. Anyone who presumes to stand and speak knowlegeably about Catholicism should at least be conversant in the Eastern perspective. That seems to be one of the goals of the CCC, and VII for that matter!

I don't know what happened to the program hosted by Fr. Sopoliga and Fr. Bertha(?). It used to be on air every week! Both Fr. Sopoliga and Fr. Bertha are Byzantine Catholic priests and know what they are talking about.

While agreeing with you that there seems to be a dearth of programming devoted to the Eastern Catholic Churches, I would like to think that it is NOT premedidated. The main culprit are production costs and the personnel required to air Eastern Catholic programs.

In this regard, Fr. Loya's "Light of the East" on radio is thriving over at "Relevant Radio" and his commentaries on the "Theology of the Body" is now broadcast nationwide weekly in the morning! It seems Fr. Loya's entire parish (kudos to Forum member Katie) is working behind the scenes!

Michael:

The suggested list is by no means restricted to Fr. Pacwa and Fr. Loya. Both came to mind only because they are "more" visible than others right now.

I am certain priests from the Maronites, Syro-Malankaras, Melkites, et al. can do the job as well. Our Forum has very knowledgeable priests (and laity) who can be tapped by EWTN!

But first, time constraints should be dismantled and the needed funding made readily available!