www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology invited to baptist re-baptism of Roman Catholic

I'm really not sure what to think about this. My brother-in-law, baptized and raised Roman Catholic, has decided to join my step sister's baptist Church and will be baptized next Sunday (not tomorrow). We have been invited by my mother and are expected to attend of course. To be honest, I really don't care what my brother-in-law does since he was never really a practicing Catholic anyway. My inclination is just to attend, smile, nod, and not say anything else. Thinking about all of this leads to so many thoughts and questions in my head, but for now, I'm just going to put most of them aside.

I know that the ancient canons of the Church forbid praying with heretics. How should those be interpreted today? I know that prior to Vatican II, Catholics were forbidden to attend protestant services. I honestly don't know what the Orthodox Church's position has been on this. I plan on going to the baptism, out of respect for the family, unless I am forbidden to. But, I expect it to be a very uncomfortable morning. It has led me to think about other things, that are related.

My sister-in-law is from an Episcopalian family. My wife's brother is a lapsed Catholic and an agnostic. Neither are interested in any Church, but will likely have their children baptized in the Episcopal Church in order to satisfy my sister-in-law's parents. If we are asked to be baptismal sponsors, what should we do? Are Orthodox even permitted to be sponsors at a non-Orthodox baptism? It seems that there will be many challenges for us in the future. Has anyone else had to deal with these kinds of issues?

On a positive note, my brother and his wife are interested in exploring Orthodoxy and no longer feel at home in the baptist Church

Joe

Dear Joe,

There is nothing more frustrating than taking the time to post to someone (something which I don't have alot of these days), having your computer say that your post is being submitted, and then having the site go down--with your post, your time and your effort completely lost! ARGH!...

Anyway, as I tried posting before: You should speak to your spiritual father before all others, however, in most jurisdictions you are indeed allowed to attend services of family members and/or friends of other Christian faith traditions, and even Jews. I can't count how many bar and bat mitzvahs, baptisms, funerals, weddings, and other prayers services my family and/or I have attended. My daughter attended a RC high school, and along with her at their masses were her classmates, the granddaughters of a local Greek Orthodox priest. Infact, the RC priest jokingly said to us, you Greek Orthodox really like our schools! (Many Greek Orthodox children have attended Catholic elementary and high schools).

Infact, one need not look further than highly publicized prayer services, breakfasts, funerals, masses, etc. to see that Greek Orthodox (and OCA and Antiochian) archbishops and bishops present. For instance, every feast of St. Peter and Paul, there is a delegation of Orthodox clerics attending services with the Pope at the Vatican.

Therefore, I don't think that attending your brother-in-law's baptism will be a problem. You are not affirming or confirming by attending, but being respectful to an important religious day in the life of a family member.

As far as baptizing/sponsoring a child that is not Orthodox, that is not allowed. Theoretically, when one baptizes a child, one is saying that they will see to them being brought up in their particular faith tradition.

As far as a non-Orthodox sponsoring/baptizing an Orthodox child, it is very common in the Greek Orthodox church, where most marriages today are inter-Christian, to see a non-Orthodox family member or close friend as a *second* sponsor--as long as the primary godparent is Orthodox.

These are good questions. Thank goodness your family members are not Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Scientologist, Muslim or Buddhist, because that may constitute a whole different set of rules and considerations.

Hope I was able to help.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Joe,

When I was young, I was told by my Orthodox priest, that should an Orthodox church not exist in a vicinity, we are to attend a Protestant church. We were not allowed to attend a Catholic Church because in the times before Vatican II, many in the RCC believed that if one was not Roman Catholic they were doomed to perdition...therefore, they must convert others in order to save their souls.

Later on I read that this was a heretical teaching by a Catholic bishop that had misinterpreted a doctrine, and I believe he was excommunicated. In the meantime, the Orthodox Church joined the National Council of Churches, as well and the World Council of Churches. By doing so, they accepted each other as being true Christian Churches...so considering that, the Protestant Churches at the time, have never been considered heretical. Of course to the Baptists of that prejudicial era, (and I did attend a Baptist College), the Catholics were doomed to perdition, and to the Catholics, the Baptists were equally doomed.

Each person in my estimation, should grow in their spirituality in which ever way is the most beneficial to their own specific personality and surroundings. As far as you are concerned, you are to show respect to others, and to what they believe. This is what I have always believed, and what Bishop Kallistos Ware said in response to someone's questions regarding different faiths within a family. Oddly enough I have been considered heretical because of these opinions, but finding them conforming totally to the opinions of Bishop Ware, either he's a heretic too, or those who differ are heretics. You can make your choice.

When I was young, my nephew was baptized in the Episcopal Church. Not knowing differently, I became one of the God-parents. Now how in the world can I raise my nephew as a Episcompalian, when I'm Orthodox? But then again, if I recall correctly, Prince Charles, the future head of the Anglican Church, was one of the God parents when the Patriarch baptized the grandson of the ex-King Constantine of Greece's son. So on it goes.....

God Bless,

Zenovia

Joe:

To be a Baptismal sponsor, you are witnessing to the congregation present and, more importantly, to God Himself that you are taking on the responsibility of helping the parents of the child to raise the child in the Faith.

Can you, then, as an Orthodox Christian represent that you will help people raise children in an ecclesial community not in communion with you?

The idea of godparents is that you SPONSOR another person into the Christian community. You stand up as a member of that community into which you SPONSOR another. Can you, an Orthodox Christian, SPONSOR someone into an Episcopal community since you are not yourself a member of that community? Doesn't seem possible.

However, if all that being a godparent is is simply going through the motions, then by all means . . .

I have sponsored three children to the font of Baptism in the Catholic Church. Part of my responsibility to these children is at the very least to pray for them and for their growth in the Faith--every day for as long as I live. I take that VERY seriously, have written a prayer to do that and recite it every day. Seems to me that if I am not in communion with a given community, then it stands to reason that I cannot SPONSOR someone--essentially recommending that they join said community--into a community that I am not in communion with. Remember that both community and communion have a common root: they both refer to the fact that people have something in common and that they are working on an ongoing relationship called "communion" or "coming into union." So I ask, again, can you SPONSOR someone into a community that holds beliefs contrary to your own?

Ask your pastor about this situation and I'm sure he'll give you good advice.

The divisions among Christians make it awfully hard in the families where we live.

BOB

Dear Alice,

Forgive me if for this particular question I disagree. To attend such a baptism is to associate oneself, however unwillingly, with the claim that the original Baptism is unreal. Since we regularly and frequently proclaim our belief that Baptism is unique and unrepeatable, giving even tacit approval to the opposite idea is a serious problem.

Fr. Serge

I would agree with Fr. Serge and would recommend against attending, since it's not actually a baptism. He's already been baptized (in the True Church, to boot) and is now undergoing a meaningless ritual.

If this were the first time he was baptized, I think I would probably go. But, in my *very* humble opinion, I think to go is to give credence to the invalidity of his Catholic baptism.

Alexis

Slava Isuzu Christu!

Ecumenism is a heresy. There is only One True Church.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/

Dear EnCogNeat3's,

I am not an ecumenist as you perceive it. I believe that their are certain things that are basic to Christianity, and that whoever believes in those basics are Christians...even though their tradition limits them in certain aspects. Because their traditions and practices are limited, the people that are members of those traditions are not able to participate in everything that a more established Church such as ours can offer them.

I do hope the day will come when all who follow and adore Christ, will be able to agree on all aspects of the faith. That does not mean that they will be accepting of all our traditions. That requires a certain growth process. What is for sure though, is that there are many members of the Orthodox Church that fall way shorter in their spiritual growth than members of other traditions...And there are members of the Orthodox Church, that have grown in their spirituality because they had become members of other Christian Churches before coming back.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Everyone,

Thanks for the good advice. As always, I value your opinions highly since people on this forum have proved themselves, to me, to be quite sensible and charitable. Given what I know about the situation, I don't think I would attend. As it is, God is good and has provided an escape from the situation. I had forgotten that my wife's parents had invited us to go out of town to the beach and it turns out that it is this very next weekend that they are going. So we will be out of town .

Interestingly enough, my brother wasn't thrilled with the whole thing either. He actually told me today that he is definitely leaving the baptist church and is going to start attending our Orthodox Church next week (my parents aren't thrilled about this, but they aren't saying much). He had been a Sunday School teacher, but he has been reading about Orthodoxy and Catholicism over the past couple of years and has come to a more traditional, sacramental understanding of Christianity. He said that last week, as he was preparing to teach Sunday school, he was reading his denomination's literature. There was a piece on the need to send more Baptist missionaries to Russia since most Russians, even though they are Russian Orthodox, don't know Jesus. Basically, this article, he said, asserted that Russian Orthodox are all still pagans. And this is the bottom line that we must realize. No matter how much we may regard them as "separated brethren," or Christians who are imperfectly united to the Church, the fact is that the rank and file of fundamentalism and evangelicalism do not consider us to be true Christians and it is their goal to evangelize all Orthodox and Catholics.

In the current situation, there is some reason to believe that my brother-in-law didn't necessarily want to be baptized again, but wanted to join his wife's church, so they required that he be baptized (since in their mind, Catholics are not true Christians).

Joe

Dear Joe,

If your mother and family are going to attend, you should attend as well.

You need not be seen to be participating in the ceremonies, but you should attend for the sake of the family.

I had a cousin who joined the Baptists and I joined him etc. I also kept the lines of communication open, he slowly opened up about religion and he eventually returned to the Catholic Church.

When I attended the ceremony, I was also invited to do a reading. I went up, crossed myself before the Bible as I do at the Tetrapod etc.

Afterwards, several Baptists approached me to ask what that was all about, we became friends and two of them admitted they were lapsed EC's - I'm on them like a wet dishrag now! And the Baptist minister exclaimed before the congregation to say, "How wonderful that we have Brother Alex among us today!"

To refuse to attend your relative's ceremony would be to alienate him further.

Anyone who disagrees with me here is allowed to - but do let me know how many Baptists YOU have helped bring back to the Church, dearhearts!

Alex

Dear Father Serge,

Thank you for correcting me. You are ofcourse right! I was thinking more of children's religious initiations.

The Baptists, Evangelicals and Pentecostals like to baptize the already baptized!

I do think, however, that Joe should tread carefully and diplomatically in how he declines...family tensions are the worst tensions and can be the easiest occasions to sin by anger, hurt and offense, don't you think?

Thank you for taking the time and concern to offer your solid pastoral advice to Joe on this thread, and for correcting my oversight.

You are the best!

Kissing your right hand,
In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

Actually, to be fair to everyone, the Russian Orthodox Church also has a record of rebaptizing Eastern Catholics AND Orthodox Christians from the Kyivan Metropolia when they were baptized by "sprinkling" and not by full immersion (in the 17th and 18th centuries).

Alex

Well, being "baptized" by sprinkling isn't a valid baptism, and when one converts to the Catholic Church if it's a possibility that he was "baptized" by sprinkling, he is conditionally baptized.

But "pouring" is valid, from a Catholic point of view, and the most common practice in the Latin Catholic Church, though of course not unilateral and with the knowledge that full immersion symbolizes what baptism is all about most accurately.

Alexis

Dear Alexis,

Sorry - I meant "pouring."

Alex

Sometimes, in religious polemics, people never want to think of the valid reasons that may have existed for the changes we see that have been made in the Western Church.

I have never read this, but have always theorized that 'pouring' in the West probably occured because of the practice of baptizing infants as soon as possible after their birth. In a period of history when the majority of one's children died, and when antibiotics and real medical care did not exist, I don't think that the Church would have been so insensitive to an infant's precarious health and very life, as to have immersed an infant in baptism in a cold, damp church.

I also think that this may be the reason that Orthodox tradition is to baptize babies at an older age. In my whole life, I don't think that I have ever witnessed a baby baptized under the age of six months. I have never really read a reason for this, but it makes sense in keeping with my above train of reasoning.

...Just my theory, for what it is worth!

Alice