www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News The patron saint of Russian nuclear bombers

Thanks admin for your right rebuke of GreekOrtho's comments. As a former pilgrim to the tomb of this great saint, I think that his disparaging remarks serve only to rekindle earlier biases and historical innaccuracies regarding that period. (It appears that 100% Orthodoxy (see his profile) does not always constitute 100% Orthodopraxy, at least as it pertains to Christian charity. I could easily say the same for myself at times - but I guess that is why I am just a "practicing" Catholic. no? :p )

Regarding the patron saint of nuclear weapons, how in the world can any Christian justify the actions of Patriarch Alexi here? I can only imagine what Jim Forrest, founder of Orthodox Peace Fellowship, must think about the absurdity of this. Can anyone honestly imaging the Servant of God, Pope John Paul the Great or Pope Benedict XVI naming such a patron? Or how about the issuance of an encyclical letter, "Inferno in Terris" as a corrective to Blessed John XXIII's "Pacem in Terris"?

Gordo, who will banish himself from this dialogue to cool his heels for a bit

Gordo,

The Admin was making a point of clarification for not only Greek Ortho's post, but I refer you back to Iconophile's. Both were out of line.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

True enough, Father. That was a pretty broad generalization (as most generalizations are ) of the practices of members of the Russian military.

To my mind, since I am not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination, there is no issue with naming patrons of military personnel. (I'm a big fan of the book, "The Virtue of War" published by Regina Orthodox Press.) But nuclear weapons are another matter altogether in my mind.

God bless,

Gordo

Gordo,

I am not a pacifist either, but I do not believe that most war need take place. It seems that with all our communications tools available, instead of working at restoring a peace, we (meaning the world) seem to like making war more often. Maybe if they started using the spirit of the gospel as a guide, they may be a little more reluctant to cause harm and destruction.

As far as naming a patron saint for nuclear forces, this leaves me rather perplexed in this action.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I agree, Father. And peace needs to begin within the churches who espouse such a Gospel. I detest the "wars" in minature that many fight, particularly between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I think there is room for dialogue and even debate, but not the kind of remarks like the ones detailed above. Our difficult pasts should be seen in the transfiguring light of Christ.

And I am no "warmonger" either, but I think Christians can and should fight in just wars, when duty calls.

Many years,

Gordo

Gordo,

I agree and Amen.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

It might be of serious interest to collate the "peace-making" pronouncements of the Moscow Patriarchate in days of yore, and print them side-by-side with these current initiatives.

Incognitus

The beatification of Karl I [sfgate.com] poses some interesting questions as well.

Dear All,

You know the room the French kept their armaments was called the 'Saint Barbara'. Evidentally they were seeking her protection in the same way the Russians flying those bombers are. They are human beings too you know.

Of course the SAint should be asked to intercede for all...maybe that way they will never be used.

Zenovia

Everyone,

I am going to interject here and put a halt to things. It looks like this post is polarizing people away from an understanding of each other and the church growing together. Many saints have struggled and have won rewards in the heavenly mansions. They may have made mistakes in their lives, but in the end our Lord has numbered them as His champions, that being Saints. We are still trying to struggle for that reward. Division is not what our Lord preached. It is sad that the God of Peace and Love through his champions is equated with hatred and destruction of His creation. Let us at look at how each has struggled to earn that place at His right side as is told to us in the parable of the Last Judgement. We read according to the Byzantine Lectionary only on Monday from Saint John's First General Epistle, "God is love".

We are not here to top each other with what saint had some short comings or not. If you are, I suggest you either read the life of Saint Mary of Egypt or Saint Moses the Ethiopian. Both had extremely sinful and destructive lives, but in the end earned that place in the heavenly mansions. Man even as one that may hold priestly orders may have succumb to an unwise choice. I believe our goal is to put past hatred and misconceptions behind, and to grow together learning from how we can work through differences.

Now, as a word of advice (from a moderator if you get my drift), let's stop pointing out and trying to top each other by finding fault with saints. By attacking the saints and the church, you are not attacking a church, but God, who is the ultimate judge of souls. I am going to let this thread to continue for the time being, but if this doesn't stop, this thread will.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

You know well, my friend, the power of sarcasm; you who once substituted the words "killing homosexuals" for "abortion" in a brilliant satirical post [if my memory serves me well].
If the Russians are going to name such an absurd patron, why should my satirical suggestion result in a threatened time out?
Jesus Christ Himself, I would suggest, was the most brilliant Satiricist in history...
Daniel

Daniel,

The reason why is that it is causing polarization on this thread, not only being accusatory to an military that was not guided at that time by any moral force. Maybe by this unit having a patron, the intercessions with God may be that it may never be considered let alone used. Attitudes change with the influence of intercession and God. What is alarming is now posters are looking for kinks in other churches saints armor, and that causing potential polarization of groups on the board. That is not the aim of it. If we want to debate whether it is a right move or wrong move fine. But with posters becoming fast offended, it is now "what is wrong with your saint" time. When this happens, we begin to state that Holy Spirit is not among the chosen, and when that happens it is a sin stating that God does not work and that conversion is not possible, which is blasphemy, the one sine God calls unforgiveable. Let us not strive for the unforgivable, but towards forgiveness.

That is why the warning. Sarcasm has its place, and you know I am not beyond using it. But in this case it brings about not correction but division and the emotion that go with it.

I hope that this is clear not only to you but all.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

Fr Anthony bless!
I am not in any way criticizing the saint in question, of whom I know little, but only ecclesial abuse; of the misguided alliance of Church and State that this represents.
It would be like if the German bishops in WWII decided to name St John Chrysostom "Patron Saint of Aryan Resistance" for his unfortunate remarks against the Jews.
Would I be threatened with exile if I mocked this?
Suggesting that a Patron of rape and pillage be named seems not far fetched when they have in effect proposed a patron of mass murder.

And trust me, I am a Russophile; one who would join the Russian Catholic Church if ever it would grow to the status of an Eparchy [not likely given the current climate].

-Daniel

Daniel,

What concerns me is that some have taken it the wrong way, and now we have this give and take on pointing the ills of saints from both sides of the fence. Misguided I agree. When it comes to the past actions of a military that enslaved nations, and hurt their inhabitants with the ultimate form of humiliation, we need to draw a line there. Responses to your post started a back and forth that is not needed in discussing the saints. I do not think this was your intention, but other have preceived it as such. If we keep our posts within lines and in charity that truly belongs to followers of our Lord and His Gospel message on this, I do not feel that any adverse action is need.

I just sometimes within my heart question what would be the motive not only for the action, but also of the original post. I pray that it was not to divide.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father bless!
I am not in any way criticizing any saints [!] but only the too human tendency to appropriate godliness for worldly ends; surely this is a familiar evil to all!
Christ be praised,
Daniel