www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall 2008 Summer Olympics In Beijing. Should We Boycott ?

I'd back Edward Yong's view of China. Even though there remain to be problems, it is a much better place to visit and live than during the insanity of the cultural revolution. There's not as much to fear from accusations of having "anti-revolutionary" tendencies as there was at the height of the revolution.

The controls now seem to be focused on enforcing a positive public image of China to foreign nations.

Sorry to print this Edward (especially since I liked your favorite movies list) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7040285.stm

Robster,

I'm not entirely uncritical, and there are plenty of things about the current r�gime that annoy me. Nevertheless, my concern is fairness. Ever since China's �conomy has picked up, there has been a slew of unfair propaganda and China-bashing from the USA.

The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were complete idiocies, agreed. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure what the Korean War has to do with anything - it wasn't China who used biological weapons developed by the Japanese in WW2 (using human experimentation, and whose Japanese developers MacArthur saved from prosecution so that with a cover-up, the USA could inherit the fruits of this wicked 'research').

The current r�gime is no longer that of Mao and those days. The current government is capitalist, and communist only in name. On the other hand, they've inherited from the Imperial days the draconian system of punishment and a deplorable tendency to overreact to things.

Lawrence,

thank you for the article - it's precisely this sort of silly overreaction that I deplore!

Dear Lord, I thank Thee that I do not live in a country where folks like Bishop Han Dingxiang don't spend years rotting in a prison.

Cold comfort, but Americans choose their sins on their own and dig their own graves themselves.

And most of us in Asia (Japan excepted) also take cold comfort in the fact that we abuse our own people - we don't go halfway around the world to invade sovereign countries, set up puppet governments and murder those natives who protest.

Not sure how that's relevant, but to be historically accurate countries in Asia have indeed sought world or hemispheric domination and killed those that disagreed with their expansionist policies.

And you're right, Singapore itself has been cited by groups like Amnesty International for the beating of its people (caning), detention without trial, curbs on public assembly, etc. etc.

Having been to China and understanding their system of justice, their continued Socialist/Communist system, and their treatment of the "opposition" I can hardly compare China to the US and keep a straight face. Someone noted that China was hardly Communist. Given that property rights still mean very little (eminent domain or what guanxi can get you), that the government owns 48 percent of all businesses (which is low considering that many companies are owned by military generals as a perk for rank), and that there are still block and neighborhood captains that monitor and report your activities and make decisions about who can have children, they still have a way to go from their Maoist roots.

The simple point is that the Olympics brings attention and prestige to the country hosting it. Would you go to the Olympics in Algeria? Burma? Zimbabwe? It is not a litmus test for a perfect country (there being only one perfect kingdom), but the China of Beijing that the crowds will see is not the real China. The Chinese government will not allow any Chinese person to stand up for what is going on in their country. This is a country that picked its own puppet dalai lama (not to mention Catholic bishops) and demanded people reverence him as such.

I've read the above sentence several times, with attention, but I'm still puzzled. Is the writer an inhabitant of some country in which "folks like Bishop Han Dingxiang" do "spend years rotting in a prison", and is he thanking God because he inhabits such a place?

I've visited Singapore four times over the past few years, and the people I know there are not complaining - they are proud to live in a virtually crime-free environment and in what is one of the cleanest cities in the world. The government of Singapore does not attempt to prevent its citizens from moving elsewhere.

On another matter - has China in fact attempted to appoint an "alternative" Dalai Lama? Or is this a confused reference to the matter of the Panchen Lama?

Buddhism holds few attractions for me, but I've always envied the Panchen Lama his title. Imagine how pleasant it would be to be known to one and all as "His Serenity"!

Fr. Serge

Beijing, Oct. 12, 2007 (CWNews.com) - The Chinese government reportedly will not allow visitors to bring religious objects such as rosary beads or holy water when they travel to Beijing for the Olympic Games next year.

The report on restrictions did not clearly indicate whether visitors would be allowed to bring Bibles into China. Nor was there any indication whether the host nation would allow Olympic teams to bring chaplains-- a practice that many countries have followed regularly.

for clarification from an interview with Time magazine:


TIME: After you, what happens to the position of the Dalai Lama?

Dalai Lama: The institution of the Dalai Lama, and whether it should continue or not, is up to the Tibetan people. If they feel it is not relevant, then it will cease and there will be no 15th Dalai Lama. But if I die today I think they will want another Dalai Lama. The purpose of reincarnation is to fulfill the previous [incarnation's] life task. My life is outside Tibet, therefore my reincarnation will logically be found outside. But then, the next question: Will the Chinese accept this or not? China will not accept. The Chinese government most probably will appoint another Dalai Lama, like it did with the Panchen Lama. Then there will be two Dalai Lamas: one, the Dalai Lama of the Tibetan heart, and one that is officially appointed.

That was in fact a typo... I have been doing a poor job of catching my own these days.



I haven't come to the same conclusion and understanding that you have about the Maryknollers or the Patriotic Church, Father. Maybe 10 years of recieving the Cardinal Kung Foundation Newsletter has just gotten me too worked up.

But for those looking to travel there, be forewarned...

Rosary ban for Beijing Olympics? [cwnews.com]

The expression "Patriotic Church" is a misnomer. Pope Benedict XVI has made it clear that there is one Catholic Church in China, despite some internal disagreements. The "Patriotic Association" is attempting to preserve its own usefulness to the government, but is probably not succeeding. China being China, I would expect that the government will allow the Patriotic Association to fizzle out quietly, "not with a bang, but with a whimper".

But why criticize the Maryknoll Missioners? For many decades they have done and are still doing excellent work for the Church in China.

Does anyone seriously expect Chinese customs to rip into everyone's luggage - and one would expect large numbers of people to go for the Olympics - in search of rosary beads and Bibles? Just imagining the length of time this would consume at ports of entry is mind-boggling. China clearly wishes to make a positive impression with the Olympics, not a negative one.

On this matter, I would certainly rely on the advice of Maryknoll as to what may be brought into China, and in what quantities. They have practical, ongoing experience in the matter.

Fr. Serge

"The current r�gime is no longer that of Mao and those days. The current government is capitalist, and communist only in name. On the other hand, they've inherited from the Imperial days the draconian system of punishment and a deplorable tendency to overreact to things."

The wheels of their bureaucracy is still affected by the influence of party membership and party politics and Mao remains an icon for many. The focus of their economy, controlled as it is by subsidization, is affected by capitalism and economic efficiency. The whole concept of labor, as seen in praxis, has had a radical shift in the last 20 years.

It remains to be seen if their economic ambitions can be reached, at the moment it's possible that the internal economic infrastructure will have a major shock. But their economists are well aware of that possibility and seem active in preventing it.

What you say is very true.

Terry

This reminds me of Jesus eating and drinking with sinners. Loving presence seems to be the way to go. You will know they are Christians by their love, not by what boycotts they are managing. Jerusalem was run by the Romans, hardly a favorite of the Jews, but the early Christians (who were originally Jews) remembered their fellow brothers and sisters when they needed food.

Thank you, Father Keleher.

Ed

A great shepherd who is greatly missed!
Lord Remember your good Shepherd Archbishop Raya and assist your
Shepherds touch hearts as he had.

Father,

I tremendously respect you and we may have to agree to disagree on this matter.

I am not sure why it has been the case that groups like the Cardinal Kung Foundation has persisted in disseminating information and understanding about the underground Church versus the Patriotic Association if there is no difference whatsoever. I believe the persecutions are real, and that in order to come under the good graces of the regime in Bejing, members of the PA have had to kow-tow to the government and distance themselves from the Vatican begining with the illigal and illicit consecrations of their bishops.

But if this is just semantics or lip service, I am left wondering how this is different from the situation our Greek Catholic brothers and sisters in Ukraine and other parts of the Soviet empire during our days in the underground. Certainly if it is just a matter of saving face why not just allow for the absorbption into the soviet state church?

Why have some 45+ bishops and hundreds of priests been imprisoned, placed under house arrest or sent to labor camps? All things being equal, they could have gotten a better deal with the PA.

Why criticize the Maryknollers? Well simply for the fact that while so many bishops and priests of the underground Church that did not comprimise languished, the Cardinal Kung foundation reports that as many as 50+ PA seminarians and priests were sponsored by them to come to the US to study.

While a efforts are made to reconcile that faction to no a normalized state of union may be ungoing, the fact that it was so blatantly irregular for so long, and during that time, the seminarians and priests supported for study here in the US by the Maryknollers were definately beholden to their totalitarian bosses is what grinds my gears.

As to the idea that it is or will be impossible to search for rosaries and bibles and the like... Well the idea that it could be a policy without teeth doesn't mean it is one that I can so easily dismiss. The point - if this is the direction they are choosing to go - is being made.