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Blahoslovy!

You know Father, Phillip's Fast is coming up soon!

Father Bless--I think you are amusing and I hope you figure out how to best enjoy your time on the forum, but I hope you are not trying to make me feel guilty or unwelcome for asking a question. I do not feel offended, but I would hate to think I was wasting your time. respectfully, Brian

Dear Brian

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty or unwelcome. But I am trying to encourage you to understand that concentrating on minutiae can easily cause you to overlook far more important things. Try Matthew: 23.

Fr. Serge

The quote given by �searching east� is from Orientalium Ecclesiarum [vatican.va]. It does not speak about the Sacramental Mystery of Confession but of the Sacramental Mystery of Confirmation (Chrismation). See the paragraph immediately preceding it for the proper context.

If one wishes information from this document on Confession one should look to paragraph 16:

There are absolutely no regulations that a penitent need worry about when approaching any Catholic priest for the Sacrament of Confession.

"There are absolutely no regulations that a penitent need worry about when approaching any Catholic priest for the Sacrament of Confession."

Though one should be aware that there may be differences that may make the penitent feel uncomfortable on receiving his remedy. I for one have experienced an odd "culture shock" of sorts having gone to confession standing before an icon one day and then receiving a listing of Hail Mary's and Our Father's weeks later while traveling. I sat there bemused at how different the experience was.

I'm sure the same can be said of the Western believer used to confession with a standard penance now faced with a priest looking at you asking you questions about yourself and trying to help you find the root of your actions.

Priest as analyst. That's different. For those of us in the Hail Mary/Our Father zone anyway.

I agree with you, but I still think faithfulness is a matter of going by the book as much as we can, and trusting that the established rules exist for a reason. You are right about what you say and my sometimes overlooking the important things, and probably in this discussion I have done that, but for all I knew there could have been rules established about who could hear confessions and where, and I wanted to understand them. I do not think that is unimportant because if there were a rule that Eastern priests could only hear latin Catholic confessions under certain circumstances then this would make me change my plans until they abided by the norms. For instance, an Orthodox Christian is only allowed to receive sacraments from a Catholic priest if they are in grave danger and no Orthodox is around (I may have this a little wrong or backward) is that considered minutiae or an important detail that should be known and strictly abided by. Usually if a rule exists, I assume it is for good reason because I am to follow the path prescribed for me and not what I consider the best choice.
That being said, your encouragement is precisely what I need to keep in mind as I move forward. Thank you,
Brian

Well, to quote a canon lawyer on the specific point you mention, Father Demetrios Salachas (who teaches canon law in Rome) said quite publicly at a canon law conference in Lebanon about ten years ago (I was there and heard him): "Let's be honest. There are many Orthodox who attend our Churches frequently, and we are not going to quiz them when they approach the Chalice." No one attempted to contradict him.



That depends in good part on which particular book you have in mind. The Scriptures? Patristic teaching? Decrees of Ecumenical Councils? Canon Law?


No doubt they do. But we are not forbidden to reflect on just what that reason might be, and whether it holds water. Prior to Vatican II a Priest of the Archdiocese of New York could hear Confessions at Saint George's Ukrainian Catholic Church in New York City - but then had to take the penitent, leave the confessional, leave the church building, and step out into the street to give absolution! Not only am I not making this up; I can document it. Does that sound reasonable to you?

If it's any consolation, the same sort of problem has been known to afflict secular law in the same way - usually in connection with laws which once made sense, have long since passed their sell-by date, but remain on the books until the legislature gets around to housecleaning.

Fr. Serge

I understand what you are saying, but I do not think it is up to us as individuals to decide which laws we are going to follow or not in regard to the Church. They may be outdated or in need of revision, but in my mind to go against one is still to say that you know better than a church in a given instance, IMO.
I can understand why someone would not be quizzed in line about receiving. That is sort of the policy anyway. It is more up to the person asking for the sacrament to be responsible for being properly disposed than it is up to the priest. But Orthodox are not permitted to receive in Catholic Churches. To do so is to go aganist the authority of their own church. It is one thing not to quiz somebody in line, but I would think if asked an hour or a day before getting into line that an Orthodox Christian would be discouraged from receiving (under normal circumstances) if he/she asked a Catholic priest under normal circumstances.
The book in mind would be all of the above, but most certainly the first (as interpreted by the church) third and fourth, unless something abrogates one of them.
As for the priest leaving the building to give absolution, I think it is beautiful (not that he had to do it, which was sad, but beautiful that they would do it anyway) because it shows complete respect and submission. And as you note, in time the issue was resolved.

Can you show me where and how it says that you are not forbidden to reflect on reasons laws are given and whether they hold water? What officially encourages this? I am not saying it is not true. I simply have never heard of such a thing. I might enjoy knowing that it is true, but with all of the chaos of varying belief in the protestant church, and the no small amount of liturgical abuse in the Latin Rite of America, it seeems dangerous to extend this freedom in determining the heart of a matter, because different priests will interpret it differently on different issues. Where would the freedom cease to be encouraged? Hw far could one extend their personal conscience in making these decisions?
That is why I think following the norms is best, because even when ridiculous I think it shows obedience and humility.
Anyway, this is not to insult you or any choices that you make or endorse. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I certianly do not have a right to mine, but this is a discussion board so I can not help but seek more clarity; and if I disagree, likely it is I who do not understand. I intend no disrespect but am only trying to respond honestly.
Brian

Also, technically, I think the Orthodox are invited to receive communion in Catholic Churches anyway (or at least have been offered it if it were allowed by their Church), which seems all the less reason for priests worrying about giving it to them. I would think they should only discourage it because they know it is out of respect to what the Orthodox Church would ask of them.

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava na Viki!

Brian--welcome to the board. I saw that you have been a member since May of this year. But I have not read any of your previous postings until this subject, so even tough you are not new, welcome anyway!

I don't think anyone will argue that rules need not be obeyed. They are there for a reason. But there can be a certain amount of "wiggle room" depending on the rule. When in doubt, simply ask the priest of whichever church you are attending. If you are attending a Byzantine church and don't want to do the wrong thing, I'm sure the priest would be quite happy, even delighted, to sit down and talk with you to explain things and answer any questions you might have. Lots of priests are busy, attending to more than one parish, but they would love to talk to a potential new parishioner. And even if you weren't a potential new parishioner, you are a soul with questions. It is their job and joy to help you. Never be afraid to ask.

If you aren't satisfied with the answers given, check with another priest of the same affiliation if you can. I don't know where you live, but if there are more than one Byzantine churches, why not make an appointment with the priest at each church and ask the same questions? You might be surprised at the answers you might get! But remember--a Byzantine Ruthenian is not the same as a Byzantine Ukrainian or a Melkite. There may be some differences in the rules that apply.

But enjoy the experience of discovery. It's a wonderful feeling that we should never lose track of.

Tim

Now I really have had it. There is no necessity to "prove" that grown-up people are not forbidden to reflect on the reasons why laws are given, and whether those reasons still hold water.

I am reminded of a man I knew in seminary who flatly refused to eat non-fasting foods on those days when the Church proscribes fasting (such as Bright Week, and the Week following the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee). He would demand to be told "who instigated this? How do we know?" and, of course, he was never satisfied with the answer.

I feel sorry for you, but it is becoming increasingly clear that you are afraid of something, and that at this remove there is nothing I can do to be of help.

Fr. Serge

Brian,

The mind of the CHURCH is not the mind of the magisterium. The laity belong to the church as well. Priests have the authority to teach and preach but they dont have exclusive rights to understanding. Otherwise it should be a maxim that "ignorance is bliss". In the east the laity are also responsible for the maintenance of the Faith, not just the Clergy. This is why it is not necessary to be clergy to be a theologian. It is never wrong to ask why and to want a satisfactory answer. Especially when other human beings are concerned.

Jason