www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Fr. Francis of EWTN

Alice,

This is beautifully said. I think it gives us much to consider. In our society of "tolerance", we have lost a bit of the sense of the obvious. (I include myself in that.) It is the frog in the pot analogy writ large across our Churches.

I also think Joe has made some very good points that also lend perspective, at least historically, to this issue. That something may be permissible, however, does not make it ideal nor should it necessarily be made easy, like changing a tire. From a biblical perspective, it is much like the distinction between Sinai and Deuteronomy. One represented the ideal, the other a lowered threshold to accommodate human weakness and failing. That Fr. Francis has made vows and has been made a priest forever according to the order of Melchisidek should not be forgotten. If he abandons these callings for the earthly goods (and they are true goods) of the love of a woman and family, salvation can still be his in God's merciful accommodation (enacted through the legislative and economic power of the Church). But it is far from ideal.

For my part, I should not have inferred that it was not a "big deal". It is a "big deal" whatever my emotional reaction to it. At the same time, Fr. Francis is still our brother in Christ and a sharer in the baptismal common priesthood. I think somewhere between tolerance of sin and judgmentalism there is a via media. We all have to table our own disappointment or biases in favor of a supernatural perspective.

Personally, there is an aspect of what Father is doing that I respect as well as an aspect that I equally abhor. Not always easy to reconcile the two.

God bless,

Gordo

Forgive me if I missed something along the way here...but did someone term Father Francis' decision to take a leave of absence to enter a period of discernment as being "courageous"?

As well as knowing priests and nuns who have left their vocations,(not because they felt they found something "better", but because they could not in heart and good conscience fulfill the vows they had professed), I also have known priests and nuns who probably, (no, better than probably), should have left their vocations and didn't/haven't.

Wherein lies the greater scancal?

Lord have mercy,
Bill

Gordo, I do agree that if Fr. Francis leaves the priesthood that may not be ideal. I am not saying hip hip horay! even if it seems like it. Just a point I would like to quibble with though. It is Christ who is high priest according to the order of Melchizedek and by our baptism in Christ we are all priests of the order of Melchizedek.

Joe

Joe,

I never thought AT ALL you were gleeful! I really liked your points.

As to the nature of our priesthood, I'm inclined to disagree, but need to research why. In part, and I think we would both agree here, the sacerdotal nature of the participation of presbyters and bishops (and deacons in a unique kenotic way) in the priestly ministry of Christ as High Priest is distinct from that of the common priesthood. The classical distinction is that the difference is not a matter of degree, but rather more essential - of nature.

As I said, I need to think further about this. (Thinking with a library is usually helpful.) I may have to get back to you on that.

In ICXC,

Gordo

I think that it is possible to argue that marriage supercedes Holy Orders and one this viewpoint is not specifically protestant. St. Paul makes marriage that typical sacrament that signifies the relationship between Christ and the Church and also in the qualifications for presbyters in the New Testament, being faithfully married to one woman and having command of one's household is essential.

I deeply love the ascetic thrust of our faith and I believe that in Christ no one is higher or lower and that the whole notion of comparing one state to another is what promotes pride, clericalism (or anti-clericalism), and divisiveness between Christians within the same household. Perhaps the early Church put too much emphasis on the superiority of the ascetic, celibate life and denigrated marriage too much (and the early Church, despite canons to the contrary and the exception of a few fathers such as St. Clement of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Athanasius did indeed denigrate marriage). Perhaps one reason why there are so many problems with the laity and with marriage and fidelity is that for centuries, married lay Christians were told by much of the hierarchy (and a good number of Nuns teaching in parochial schools) that they didn't really count, that they were second class citizens, and that they were only really holy if they produced lots of babies so that some of them could become priests and nuns. This sounds like a caricature I know. But believe or not some caricatures are frighteningly close to reality. For all of the errors of Protestantism, upholding the dignity of the laity and the marital state was one of its strengths and I can't help but think that were Fr. Francis a protestant minister, his people would be rejoicing that he had found someone to be a soul mate and he would continue in his ministry doing much good for his congregation. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but perhaps I'm a bit too radical.

Joe

Slava Isusu Khrystu!

I cannot understand and perhaps I am being deeply petty about this why people are still harping about Father Francis of EWTN. What that poor man needs is prayer and not a lot of finger pointing...he should have done this....or he should have done that......Our priests and sisters need Prayer and not a lot of finger pointing at them. None of us are perfect. We are all sinners and the Lord came to redeem us from that and to be merciful. I do think that Father Francis is in need of the mercy and love of Christ which I am sure he is receiving.

Please excuse and forgive my sounding so petty. May the Lord and Lover of Mankind Have Mercy on Us.

John Doucette

John,

You don't sound petty at all. I think you are exactly right.

Joe

Dear Joe,

If he were Orthodox, he would have had to have decided on a wife before being ordained a priest.

Dear All,

I am getting the feeling that the undertones of some of the posts here are ones arguing in favor of marriage as being the most perfect state for all men. Marriage is not and never has been for every man or woman, and whatever discipline and decisions a church has set for its members should be respected here, since we are a forum of both Catholics and Orthodox.

I started to think that perhaps marriage might be better for RC priests because of how many are falling, until I found out about the numerous married Orthodox priests who have had adulterous affairs lately, committed paedophilia, or have had their wives leave them for others. That is why Father Aris wrote that article 'Let's get real about priestly indescretions'.

There is no perfect state in this crazy society we live in. Let's not contribute to the craziness by imposing our personal experiences, values, desires, and struggles on the different decisions and disciplines which the Church, East and West has decided for its clergy. The rules are what they are, and we need to respect them, or else we will be eroding Christ's Body from within while others do it from without. Traditional Christianity has enough enemies and critics. Let's not add to them.

Being married or not married doesn't make you less holy or more holy, and in Orthodoxy, it is considered a holy bond, but being a priest definitely does put one on a different level.

The Orthodox say that even the angels are in awe of the Priest, for the priest is the one who holds the body and blood of our Lord in His hands!

Priests are also our role models. While no one is without sin, St. John Chrysostom spoke of the danger of priests falling when he spoke of the roads of hell being paved with their skulls. Some positions in society are held to a higher accounting, and priests fall into that category.

Speaking of no particular person specifically, I would say that falling in love and leaving the priesthood, in and of itself is definitely not sinful, but the disappointment and example it sets for those souls who looked up to the priest as someone who would hold firm and strong in his commitment to the Priesthood, may be something that priest will have to answer for--who knows? What we do know, and should know, is that the priesthood is never something which should be entered upon lightly.

I think that we should also wonder about women today, because these attractions to priests (Orthodox and Catholic), married men, etc., which they entertain today were always 'off limits' in days of more self respect and self discipline.

I was hoping that this thread would have finished a page ago, but since it hasn't, let's just try to understand and respect all the different viewpoints here, and remember that this thread started for a particular priest. We don't all need to agree with each other, but we do need to remember to pray for him and hope that he makes the right decision.

Lord have mercy on us all!

Alice

Good points, Alice and Joe and John.

The idea that being a celibate is intrinsically higher than being ordinary folk is wrong. I think the celibate life can be a means for cultivating more spiritual states of consciousness. Yet, ultimately, those are just different states of consciousness . . . and selfishness and sin can happen in any state of consciousness. Many a monk has become evil in his advanced spirituality . . . over pride in his spirituality. Something similar happened to Lucifer too. Spirituality is not the same thing as holiness. It's just another state of consciousness.

Holiness is living in communion with God: directly and in the neighbor. That just takes a open, humble, and grateful heart. As one laywoman, wife and mother once said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior . . . "

Breaking one's vows is always a serious matter. So too is forgiveness and going forward.

Fr. Francis is discerning his vocation. I agree with John that what he needs right now is prayers.

My two cents.

-- John

John,


Whereas I agree with much of what you write in your post, the above statement I quoted goes against 2,000 of Christian tradition. The call to celibacy has always been seen as a higher calling than married life - in the patristic age as well as the middle ages and even today. This, of course, does not mean that all are called to it, nor that one cannot become holy in other states of life. But, objectively, celibacy is a higher calling than the married life, as one has given up a great good for the sake of Christ.


Of course, she was also a celibate.

Lawrence and friends,

We do not know what is going to happen yet, or what Fr. Francis is going to do.

One scenario is that he will be released from his vows, allowed to be married and remain Catholic. This is sometimes deemed appropriate in the Church, and the Church has the power to do so. That is not necessarily a "Protestant" outcome.

In the same way we hope priests will honor the vows, let's also honor the Church and her power to bind & loose.

Blessings,

Lance

That is a subjective and not an objective statement if I've ever read one.

The Orthodox Church has always considered celibacy in monasticism a higher calling...think of what you are giving up: the companionship and love of a spouse and children in order to serve God completely and fully! That is why monasticism is called 'HOLY' monasticism.

Could I ever expect to reach the heights of spiritual mysticism that a monastic who is in prayer 24/7 can--I seriously doubt it unless I was prelest.

I have never met an Orthodox man who has had a problem with that until this forum!

I think that Francis' whole post was excellent and I was waiting for the usual fur to fly...

The usual responses have been rehashed on this forum way too often and this has become way off topic.

Since many of our posters are taking statements and conversations on this thread way too personally here, I think that it is finally time to close this thread. I also think that we have spent too much time in 'idle talk' about this matter.

Someone sent me this link from Fr. Groeshcel, and he is admonishing us, so this thread is hereby closed:

http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2007/11/fr-benedict-groeschel-admonishes.html

I will lock it, but I have also contacted Fr. Anthony to make the final decision because I am in no mood for reactions to my decision. This topic is NOT to be reintroduced or it will be deleted by the Administrators.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator