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Dear Byzantophile,
I also wondered how the Spanish missionaries, and native Indians of California would have been able to communicate with the Aleuts...your explanation is definately a clear thought and very plausible one!
I also agree with Alex, that we ought to listen to the church authorities who canonized Saint Peter the Aleut.
God bless and keep you!
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I apologize for harping on this issue, but the historian (as well as the Spaniard) in me needs documentation. The OCA seems to be at a loss as to his date of death. There are also other things that seem off. http://www.oca.org/FS.NA-Saint.asp?SID=4&Saint=PeterAgain, the language issue alone brings this into question. The Catholic Church has not hesitated to suppress cults that have been deemed spurious once it has investigated the matter. Is this the policy of the Eastern Orthodox as well? From http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2007/2007-3.html: There is a tradition current among some Orthodox Christians in San Francisco that Saint Peter is buried in the Mission Dolores Cemetery and pious pilgrims come there to pray:
After the meal, we left with Matushka Evgenia�s blessing and went to the place of the martyrdom of St. Peter the Aleut, the Mission Dolores. Even though it is not known the exact location of his martyrdom by the Roman Catholic �missionaries,� we sang the magnification to St. Peter in the cemetery (Duncan). Heretics and schismatics were not allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries at that time. If he were buried there it would suggest that we was killed for another reason. Spanish texts of that time give contrary information: It seems to me that there are good reasons for sending the four Russian Indians to your [the Santa Barbara] Presidio, all the more because you already have a countryman of theirs through whom pertinent and customary questioning could be conducted.
May God grant that they really want holy baptism, but I think there is not reason why it should be administered here except that the neophytes who brought them happened to belong to this Mission [San Buenaventura] and therefore they were the ones who said that the four wanted to be baptized. As for the Russian Indians themselves, I can hardly understand a word they say. But if they feel inclined to become members of our congregation of San Buenaventurea and if the Governor has no objections to their admittance to a mission, we can very well comply with their wishes (Cited in Farris: 8; Se�an: 87). To me this whole matter is a continuation of The Black Legend. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/opinion/09horwitz.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend
Last edited by Byzantophile; 12/10/07 04:36 PM.
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Dear Byzantophile, The contributions of the Spanish Franciscan Missions to the Americas are of inestimable cultural, spiritual and civilizing value - anyone who denies this is simply being vicious and not truthful about the historical facts here! (And I love Spain and the many urban niches with Saints and Madonnas - there are too many to stop at each one to venerate them with prayers, but I'm getting better at it! When my wife pushes me onward, I wait for her to go into a shop and then do a quick backtrack!  ) Again, it would be wrong to generalize regarding the Franciscans or the Spaniards based on the event of St Peter the Aleut. And, ultimately, he is a saint of Orthodoxy, not every Orthodox church has him in their calendars and he doesn't appear anywhere on any EC calendars. So we shouldn't make a mountain out of a molehill here . . . How do you do those upside down exclamation marks? Alex
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I have never heard of this saint before reading about him here. Going to the OCA web site I find the following significant: Born: not available Died: not available Glorification Date: not available Commemoration Date: September 24 Not much real historical info to go on is there? Not even a Glorification date???????? Also I know my Orthodox Church does not venerate St. Peter the Aleut. May I venture to state the the OCA needing a group of Saints of North America for their own ideological purposes in their attempt to establish themselves as an American Church added St. Peter the Aleut to their list along with St. Alexis Toth etc.
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How do you do those upside down exclamation marks?
Alex http://www.uiowa.edu/~spanport/personal/Klein/MiniGram/SpKeyb.htm Or just find one, clip and �paste!
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St Peter the Aleut, the Martyr of San Francisco was glorified in 1980 by the Orthodox Church in America. For a brief exposition on his martydom,see: http://www.umich.edu/~ocf/saint_peter_the_aleut.htm and http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/orthodoxy/peter.htmlAlexandr
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I have my doubts about whether or not Peter the Aleut existed, but I must admit that the existence of another Native American was called into question prior to his own canonization: Saint Juan Diego.
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May I venture to state the the OCA needing a group of Saints of North America for their own ideological purposes in their attempt to establish themselves as an American Church added St. Peter the Aleut to their list along with St. Alexis Toth etc. I would tend to agree.
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I have my doubts about whether or not Peter the Aleut existed, but I must admit that the existence of another Native American was called into question prior to his own canonization: Saint Juan Diego. Huh?!!! You realize that he did meet with Bishop Zum�rraga of Mexico City and ended up developing a friendship with him, right? It might be hard to deny the existence of someone who was seen at the cathedral receiving communion weekly. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?
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Dear Byzantophile, Actually, Griego Catolico is right. At the time of the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe and also one major reason why this devotion has always been so important to the Natives of Mexico and Latin America is that She appeared to Juan Diego and not to a member of the Spanish Catholic hierarchy etc. It is a fact that the existence of Juan Diego was formally questioned by the Spanish authorities and for that reason. That really was politics and Jesuits (not Franciscans) could very well have been involved. Perhaps the Jesuits were Portuguese!  P.S. Would you like a small icon of St Peter the Aleut? Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 12/11/07 02:59 PM.
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Dear Byzantophile, Please don't misinterpret my post.  As a Mexican-American,I am a staunch defender of the existence of saint Juan Diego. I even got into a heated "discussion" when my philosophy professor questioned his existence. Maybe I wasn't clear in my prior post. What I meant to say is that even though I personally have my doubts about the existence of Peter the Aleut ( a native American), I say that knowing full well that others have doubted and still doubt the existence of Saint Juan Diego (another native American)who is near and dear to me and my people. Is that more clear? God bless, griego
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There is also something.
I have asked this before, and people with knowledge about the Spanish colonial times tell me that the Orthodox were not treated as heretics in the Spanish dominions. The Armenian community for example, is one of the oldest in Latin America, there were always merchants and Armenian communities in New Spain and Peru for example. Their members were expected to receive the sacraments in the Catholic Church, but it's asumed that many of these were Armenian Orthodox and in all the Spanish colonial period there's not a single file of someone being tried by the inquisition or the authorities as an "eastern schismatic".
They probably thought that Blessed Peter the Aleut was a Pagan Native, that's the explanation that comes to my mind, but most likely, if there was torture, this was because of a political reason.
I do not doubt his existance, but there's something that puzzles me, and this is that in my opinion, the exaltation of St. Peter the Aleut tends to support the view that everything was wrong and backwards until the Anglo-Protestants came to bring "progress and freedom" by taking California as part of their country.
At the time when St. Peter the Aleut lived, the Inquisition in Mexico had lost a lot of power, and torture was no longer used as a method to induce someone to convert as it was used in the previous centuries.
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Could someone cite me documents showing where the veracity of the Guadalupe story was placed in doubt after it had been already approved? From the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913: Oral and written, Indian and Spanish, the account is unwavering. To a neophyte, fifty five years old, named Juan Diego, who was hurrying down Tepeyac hill to hear Mass in Mexico City, on Saturday, 9 December, 1531, the Blessed Virgin appeared and sent him to Bishop Zum�rraga to have a temple built where she stood. She was at the same place that evening and Sunday evening to get the bishop's answer. He had not immediately believed the messenger; having cross-questioned him and had him watched, he finally bade him ask a sign of the lady who said she was the mother of the true God. The neophyte agreed so readily to ask any sign desired, that the bishop was impressed and left the sign to the apparition. Juan was occupied all Monday with Bernardino, an uncle, who seemed dying of fever. Indian specifics failed; so at daybreak on Tuesday, 12 December, the grieved nephew was running to the St. James's convent for a priest. To avoid the apparition and untimely message to the bishop, he slipped round where the well chapel now stands. But the Blessed Virgin crossed down to meet him and said: "What road is this thou takest son?" A tender dialogue ensued. Reassuring Juan about his uncle whom at that instant she cured, appearing to him also and calling herself Holy Mary of Guadalupe she bade him go again to the bishop. Without hesitating he joyously asked the sign. She told him to go up to the rocks and gather roses. He knew it was neither the time nor the place for roses, but he went and found them. Gathering many into the lap of his tilma a long cloak or wrapper used by Mexican Indians he came back. The Holy Mother, rearranging the roses, bade him keep them untouched and unseen till he reached the bishop. Having got to the presence of Zum�rraga, Juan offered the sign. As he unfolded his cloak the roses fell out, and he was startled to see the bishop and his attendants kneeling before him: the life size figure of the Virgin Mother, just as he had described her, was glowing on the poor tilma.
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Dear Byzantophile,
Well, in my undergraduate social anthropology class in university, the professor (who worked for a long time in Mexico) had us read a few things in connection with the Spanish and the Natives of the Americas, including a study on Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Unfortunately, I don't believe any of those scholars ever read the 1913 Catholic Encyclopaedia in that respect so their findings may very well be quite biased!
In addition, no Spaniard at the time would deny that the tilma of St Juan Diego bore the actual image of the Theotokos. That is not and never was in question here. The issue is the tremendous impact this revelation to a Native of the Spanish Empire had and the later attempts by the Spaniards to try and shift the emphasis away from the ramifications of the fact that She appeared to a Native and not to a Spaniard.
And it would not be the first time in history that such a thing occurred, in Ukraine alone there are similar instances.
Cheers,
Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 12/12/07 10:16 AM.
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In addition, no Spaniard at the time would deny that the tilma of St Juan Diego bore the actual image of the Theotokos. That is not and never was in question here. The issue is the tremendous impact this revelation to a Native of the Spanish Empire had and the later attempts by the Spaniards to try and shift the emphasis away from the ramifications of the fact that She appeared to a Native and not to a Spaniard.
And it would not be the first time in history that such a thing occurred, in Ukraine alone there are similar instances.
Cheers,
Alex Dear Alex, I would be most interested to learn of the similar occurences in Ukraine, if you cared to share your knowledge of them. God bless and keep you....
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